Ukraine

[cannon_fodder]

Aquaman:

- Ukraine participates with NATO forces in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan.  NATO and the Ukraine have had a series of meeting about Ukraine joining.  They are not a member and are not scheduled to be a member - but they do work closely with the US military. Additionally, the US has formally endorsed any Ukrainian bid to join NATO.
- The United States does $3-4 billion in trade with Ukraine every year.  Enjoying a nearly $1bil trade surplus with Ukraine (that is, we export a billion more than we import).
- The US is viewed favorably by a majority of Ukrainians (though that went from 85% at the start of Bush II to 65% by the end), given the Russian population that's amazingly strong.
- Ukraine is a young democracy.  The US almost always has strong ties with democracies.
- The US has written obligations to recognize and defend the Ukraine's territorial integrity.
- There are 800,000 ethnic Ukrainians in the US


So no.  Ukraine is not a NATO member.  But they are a friendly nation. 

[cannon_fodder]

This is interesting:

President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm

Claims About Ukraine
President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine


Fact Sheet
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
March 5, 2014
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As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, "The formula 'two times two equals five' is not without its attractions."

Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin's recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort.

1. Mr. Putin says:  Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is "citizens' defense groups," not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea.

The Facts:  Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians.

2. Mr. Putin says:  Russia's actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

The Facts:  The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity. Russia's military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty.

3. Mr. Putin says:  The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

The Facts:  The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption.

4. Mr. Putin says:  Ukraine's government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

The Facts:  On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych "has no political future." After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine's new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

5. Mr. Putin says:  There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.

The Facts:  To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees.

6. Mr. Putin says:  Ethnic Russians are under threat.

The Facts:  Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents.

7. Mr. Putin says:  Russian bases are under threat.

The Facts:  Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action.

8. Mr. Putin says:  There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine.

The Facts:  Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine's church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

9. Mr. Putin says:  Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea.

The Facts:  Ukraine's interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada.

10. Mr. Putin says:  The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.

The Facts:  The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.

[AquaMan]

Aquaman:

- Ukraine participates with NATO forces in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan.  NATO and the Ukraine have had a series of meeting about Ukraine joining.  They are not a member and are not scheduled to be a member - but they do work closely with the US military. Additionally, the US has formally endorsed any Ukrainian bid to join NATO.
- The United States does $3-4 billion in trade with Ukraine every year.  Enjoying a nearly $1bil trade surplus with Ukraine (that is, we export a billion more than we import).
- The US is viewed favorably by a majority of Ukrainians (though that went from 85% at the start of Bush II to 65% by the end), given the Russian population that's amazingly strong.
- Ukraine is a young democracy.  The US almost always has strong ties with democracies.
- The US has written obligations to recognize and defend the Ukraine's territorial integrity.
- There are 800,000 ethnic Ukrainians in the US


So no.  Ukraine is not a NATO member.  But they are a friendly nation.  

That's exactly what the two websites I listed reported. And that's partly why Putin is skeptical. If you look at the map on the NATO website you'll notice that Russia is totally hemmed in on its western border with NATO members or PfP's. These countries are receiving aid, preferential trade and military assistance. All above board, legal and good for everyone. In fact Russia was part of the original agreements that set up the arrangement. This was started over two decades and three presidents ago. So its been a bi-partisan, multi-nation effort.

However, you might also add that the US has promised, along with EU members, to provide security for these countries. But this is not 1994 anymore. Putin suspects we are behind some of the revolutions, intrigue and rampant anti-Russian sentiment. That might be because he is a former KGB colonel and knows of past secretive operations of all the major players. Or it is more likely because Russian government sucks big time and their people now know they can do better.

I ask you. How would we feel about our bordering countries signing up with Socialist leaning organizations who have been promised favored trade and security arrangements? We didn't like it at all in Cuba. We aren't able to do much with Mexico and Latin America even when Reagan kicked them around. Panama kicked us out as well. Thank God for Canada! (even though they have those damn gun laws).

None of this was imparted in the previous pages in favor of distortion, spin, character attacks and outright untruths. An intelligent discussion is when facts are used, positions are defensible and words are carefully chosen, while innuendo, childish name calling and campaign style nastiness is absent. Or is that what passes for discussion with your generation?

[heironymouspasparagus]

I get your post and agree with your general sentiment, but my Texan wife's family as well as my kids who were both born in TX, would probably take umbrage at including TX in with the other states.   Texas won it's independence from Mexico own it's own.  There was no support from the US military at the time.  "Remember the Alamo!", and "Remember Goliad!"  were Texian battle cries, not US.  It then became an independent country for a while before aligning with and be annexed by the US.  (Which did start another war, this time between the US and Mexico, but Texas was already independent by then.)

Details....  Texas had a "treaty" with Mexico that put the border hundreds of miles north of where it is today.  On their own, they invaded and took over - they made a land grab and it worked out for them.  At least until about 30 years ago, when the counter-invasion scaled up.  

Smaller scale version of exactly what the US was doing in the rest of the country.

[AquaMan]

This is interesting:

President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm

Anyone expecting truth to come out of this mess or Putin's mouth is ....expecting too much. What is that old phrase? "I like to find the truth but I'll settle for justice".

[heironymouspasparagus]

Are you serious? Palin has been all over this. Part of her "idiot" rap was her comment about Russia and the Ukraine from 2008--which turned out to be TRUE.

That's one of those "million monkeys with a million typewriters and you get a novel" moments - as she has proven conclusively over the last many years....

[AquaMan]

OK then.  :p

China has back off their support of Russia when the USA asked if the whole people should decide who governs them thing applied to Tibet (and Taiwan).  They now feel the territorial integrity of the Ukraine must be respected.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N0M30K720140306?irpc=932

Ok, Conan. I get to do a "toldjaso".

Seven pages ago...."Sometimes, standing back and taking a deep breath is critical to good decision making. Putin has made his play. If he is in fact in charge he may have played a bad hand. If its the crazies and the military then few solutions are available. China is as key as our allies.

And didn't I read that Obama is sending someone over to China...on vacation or something. Yeah, just a vacation, really.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Sheesh. Here's a newscaster making it all about herself. Click the video for maximum self-absorption.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/03/05/rt-anchor-quits-on-air.html

Like anyone who works for RT doesn't know what it is...?  Hey, employees of RT - it's spelled M O U T H P I E C E  !!

Very elementary English, actually, not sure why anyone would have any doubt..??

[heironymouspasparagus]

You don't think it's odd that the first lady would choose to spend american tax dollars her vacation dollars in a country that at this very moment is opposing our foreign policy?

I mean we understand how vacations are really really really important to the Obamas, but perhaps this would be a good time to divert those millions and millions of our tax dollars Michelle's mad money to a country that is supportive of us.

I know. I know.  That's crazy talk.  It's our their money and they are free to waste spend it as they please.

And what has your and your company's position been about supporting China at any time during the last 30 years or so...?

Buy from a Chinese company?  Chinese software?  Anything else from a Chinese source?

But hey....what's consistency got to do with it....?

[swake]

[Gaspar]

And what has your and your company's position been about supporting China at any time during the last 30 years or so...?

Buy from a Chinese company?  Chinese software?  Anything else from a Chinese source?

But hey....what's consistency got to do with it....?

There is such a thing as Chinese software?  We don't have that many keys on our keyboards.

[RecycleMichael]

Unfortunately fence-sitting hurt us.  Putin has the best hand currently because he knows Obama is going to waver like a reed, and confront this with rhetoric instead of action.  

How does this differ from the President Bush response when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008? It looks the same to me.

This comes from the NY Times...


James F. Jeffrey was Mr. Bush's deputy national security adviser in August 2008, the first to inform him that Russian troops were moving into Georgia in response to what the Kremlin called Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. As it happened, the clash also took place at Olympic time; Mr. Bush and Mr. Putin were both in Beijing for the Summer Games.

Mr. Bush confronted Mr. Putin to no avail, then ordered American ships to the region and provided a military transport to return home Georgian troops on duty in Iraq. He sent humanitarian aid on a military aircraft, assuming that Russia would be loath to attack the capital of Tbilisi with American military personnel present. Mr. Bush also suspended a pending civilian nuclear agreement, and NATO suspended military contacts.

"We did a lot but in the end there was not that much that you could do," Mr. Jeffrey recalled.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/russia-to-pay-not-so-simple.html?_r=1

[Gaspar]

How does this differ from the President Bush response when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008? It looks the same to me.

This comes from the NY Times...


James F. Jeffrey was Mr. Bush's deputy national security adviser in August 2008, the first to inform him that Russian troops were moving into Georgia in response to what the Kremlin called Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. As it happened, the clash also took place at Olympic time; Mr. Bush and Mr. Putin were both in Beijing for the Summer Games.

Mr. Bush confronted Mr. Putin to no avail, then ordered American ships to the region and provided a military transport to return home Georgian troops on duty in Iraq. He sent humanitarian aid on a military aircraft, assuming that Russia would be loath to attack the capital of Tbilisi with American military personnel present. Mr. Bush also suspended a pending civilian nuclear agreement, and NATO suspended military contacts.

"We did a lot but in the end there was not that much that you could do," Mr. Jeffrey recalled.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/europe/russia-to-pay-not-so-simple.html?_r=1

It's exactly the same!

[RecycleMichael]

That's what I was thinking.

If the conservative President Bush and the liberal President Obama agree that this action/inaction is the best strategy, I feel that they must know something we don't. Maybe we shouldn't be so critical.

[Gaspar]

That's what I was thinking.

If the conservative President Bush and the liberal President Obama agree that this action/inaction is the best strategy, I feel that they must know something we don't. Maybe we shouldn't be so critical.

Or perhaps they both exhibit feckless foreign policy skills and therefore we should be critical?

There is always this rush among the Obama apologists to say "well Bush did it" like that is some kind of free pass for poor leadership.  This country is better than that, and our leaders should be held accountable regardless and in the face of past mistakes. 

. . .and actually we should have learned from Georgia, Syria, Iran that you do not trust Putin.  The juvenile gift of a "Reset" button (that actually said "Overloaded") does not fix an egotistical KGB monster who morns the fall of the Soviet Union.