Ukraine

[Gaspar]

Someone forgot to tell former Madame Secretary that.

She's exactly right.

Of course perhaps we shouldn't have been funding Ukrainian protesters to march against the Pro-Russian government and playing the same games that put us in other wars.

Funny thing is that when this story broke it was a big NYT article back on Feb 2nd.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/world/europe/ukraine.html
None of the networks seem to be interested in talking about it any more.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/
http://www.infowars.com/us-and-eu-are-paying-ukrainian-rioters-and-protesters/

A leaked phone call originally published by NPR links the US, and another even more damning call links EU officials to the sniper killings last month.
http://nipr.fm/post/leaked-ukraine-phone-call-puts-us-credibility-line
http://www.infowars.com/leaked-phone-call-kiev-snipers-hired-by-us-backed-opposition/

So, perhaps it would be best if this administration did not play these games, because they are not very good at it.  At least they're not blaming it on an internet video, yet.

We are square in the middle of this, yet we are pretending not to be.

[guido911]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/david-cameron-posted-a-picture-of-himself-on-the-phone-and-t

[Gaspar]

We're sending The USS Truxtun missile destroyer to the Black Sea on a "routine training mission."

http://news.yahoo.com/us-destroyer-en-route-black-sea-routine-drills-160237512.html;_ylt=AwrTWVXrnxhTIwcAxYLQtDMD

[guido911]

Bad news. Obama's vacation is in jeopardy.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/obama-vacation-plans-vladimir-putin-russia-104319.html#ixzz2vCRpKa85

[Gaspar]

Bad news. Obama's vacation is in jeopardy.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/obama-vacation-plans-vladimir-putin-russia-104319.html#ixzz2vCRpKa85

Oh smile!

I hope this doesn't threaten Michelle's scheduled vacation to China this month.  The CBO hasn't scored this trip yet, but I'm willing to bet it comes in at just a little over $3 million dollars.

Hey wait a minute, isn't China allied with Russia on this whole invasion thing?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572615/Michelle-Obama-plans-pricey-trip-China-First-Family-criticized-spending-hundreds-millions-dollars-traveling-taxpayers-dime.html

[Townsend]

^^^^^^^

OK, this is what I figure makes sense for the Forum's international politics threads.  Pointless jibber jabber as opposed to the "I believe my opinions matter" jibber jabber.

[Gaspar]

^^^^^^^

OK, this is what I figure makes sense for the Forum's international politics threads.  Pointless jibber jabber as opposed to the "I believe my opinions matter" jibber jabber.

You don't think it's odd that the first lady would choose to spend american tax dollars her vacation dollars in a country that at this very moment is opposing our foreign policy?

I mean we understand how vacations are really really really important to the Obamas, but perhaps this would be a good time to divert those millions and millions of our tax dollars Michelle's mad money to a country that is supportive of us.

I know. I know.  That's crazy talk.  It's our their money and they are free to waste spend it as they please.

[Townsend]

You don't think it's odd that the first lady would choose to spend american tax dollars her vacation dollars in a country that at this very moment is opposing our foreign policy?

I mean we understand how vacations are really really really important to the Obamas, but perhaps this would be a good time to divert those millions and millions of our tax dollars Michelle's mad money to a country that is supportive of us.

I know. I know.  That's crazy talk.  It's our their money and they are free to waste spend it as they please.

My point was the thread posts.

Posting non-serious blatherings like you're doing now makes much more sense than posting things as if they make a difference.

[cannon_fodder]

im confused  Townsend...

Sorry for trying to intelligently discuss a topic that will have major implications globally and locally.  I didn't think this was 4chan.  Since when is being educated on a topic and expressing an opinion a bad thing?  This entire thread you've ragged any post that actually addresses the issues.

Of course we aren't important.  My opinion matters as far as my single vote can carry me. If you don't want to discuss Ukrainian politics,  don't read the Ukrainian politics thread.

Back to meme posting...we will let the important people discuss important things.  We will learn our station and cling t discussing the smaller things.

[Townsend]

im confused  Townsend...

Sorry for trying to intelligently discuss a topic that will have major implications globally and locally.  I didn't think this was 4chan.  Since when is being educated on a topic and expressing an opinion a bad thing?  This entire thread you've ragged any post that actually addresses the issues.

Of course we aren't important.  My opinion matters as far as my single vote can carry me. If you don't want to discuss Ukrainian politics,  don't read the Ukrainian politics thread.

Back to meme posting...we will let the important people discuss important things.  We will learn our station and cling t discussing the smaller things.

Point taken.  I was expressing an opinion.

[cannon_fodder]

OK then.  :p

China has back off their support of Russia when the USA asked if the whole people should decide who governs them thing applied to Tibet (and Taiwan).  They now feel the territorial integrity of the Ukraine must be respected.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N0M30K720140306?irpc=932

[Gaspar]

Really excellent article on the issue by Henry Kissinger.  Still as brilliant as ever!

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea's relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea's autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

[AquaMan]

You guys are doing little intellectual discussion and a lot of politicizing. Opinions are one thing, but blurting out half truths, posting pics with captions and criticizing Democrats while ignoring everyone else's mistakes is not intellectual discussion.

A couple of points. Gas says Ukraine is an ally and a partner. Not true. Stop talking about what you don't know. From WiKi and NATO websites-

"The Partnership for Peace (PfP) is a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) program aimed at creating trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union; 22 states are members.[1] It was first discussed by the Bulgarian Society Novae, after proposed as an American initiative at the meeting of NATO defense ministers in Travemünde, Germany, on 20–21 October 1993, and formally launched on 10–11 January 1994 NATO summit in Brussels, Belgium"

NATO helps out with military and disaster preparedness programs. Lots of former satellites signed up for the program. Some later joined NATO, left and came back. Some joined 22 years ago and remain members.  Must be assuring to nearby Russia. These "provisional" members may do business with NATO members but they are not partners either.

There is a huge difference between parallells with history, comparable to history and EXACTLY like history. Clinton understands that and made that point. What we gathered from the experience in 1930's Germany was what mattered, not the mechanics of the take-over. That was the manifestation of the disease, not its causes. The parallel she drew was political and was meant to do what Gas does with pics and spins.

Because of what we learned the UN and NATO came in to place. Today's world is vastly different in the Ukraine than Europe in the 30's. But wherever you find economic disaster you find the seeds of revolution and war.

[Conan71]

You guys are doing little intellectual discussion and a lot of politicizing. Opinions are one thing, but blurting out half truths, posting pics with captions and criticizing Democrats while ignoring everyone else's mistakes is not intellectual discussion.

A couple of points. Gas says Ukraine is an ally and a partner. Not true. Stop talking about what you don't know. From WiKi and NATO websites-

"The Partnership for Peace (PfP) is a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) program aimed at creating trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union; 22 states are members.[1] It was first discussed by the Bulgarian Society Novae, after proposed as an American initiative at the meeting of NATO defense ministers in Travemünde, Germany, on 20–21 October 1993, and formally launched on 10–11 January 1994 NATO summit in Brussels, Belgium"

NATO helps out with military and disaster preparedness programs. Lots of former satellites signed up for the program. Some later joined NATO, left and came back. Some joined 22 years ago and remain members.  Must be assuring to nearby Russia. These "provisional" members may do business with NATO members but they are not partners either.

There is a huge difference between parallells with history, comparable to history and EXACTLY like history. Clinton understands that and made that point. What we gathered from the experience in 1930's Germany was what mattered, not the mechanics of the take-over. That was the manifestation of the disease, not its causes. The parallel she drew was political and was meant to do what Gas does with pics and spins.

Because of what we learned the UN and NATO came in to place. Today's world is vastly different in the Ukraine than Europe in the 30's. But wherever you find economic disaster you find the seeds of revolution and war.

I just want to know if anyone Godwinned Former Madame Secretary Clinton for that.

[DolfanBob]

OK I'm sorry. But every time I hear Ukraine. This comes to mind. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii0YmKEu2dg