2016 Presidential Campaign

[Hoss]

Wait, so Bush so foobarred relations with the Middle East that the acts of 9/11 fall squarely on his shoulders?

Considering the length of the Iraq and Afghani conflicts, Bush should get credit for the fewest soldiers killed for such a duration, compared to WWI, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam.  No, wait, that credit would have to go to Obama.  I get it.

He should also get blame for amount of soldiers killed in a war we shouldn't have been in, just like Nixon, Johnson and possibly Truman and Ike with Korea.  WWII was a justified war; we were attacked by the Axis Powers.  And even then we waited until we were attacked.

We need to stop being the world policeman and let nations deal with their own issues.

[Red Arrow]

He should also get blame for amount of soldiers killed in a war we shouldn't have been in, just like Nixon, Johnson and possibly Truman and Ike with Korea.  WWII was a justified war; we were attacked by the Axis Powers.  And even then we waited until we were attacked.

We need to stop being the world policeman and let nations deal with their own issues.

You forgot Kennedy.  We already had troops in SE Asia while Kennedy was still alive. Johnson did the big escalation.

[Red Arrow]

That is your way to evaluate all wars?

Obama is winning then.

http://www.icasualties.org/

In order for Obama to claim anything good about the Iraq/Afghan situations, he will have to take ownership of them.  I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[guido911]

He should also get blame for amount of soldiers killed in a war we shouldn't have been in, just like Nixon, Johnson and possibly Truman and Ike with Korea.  WWII was a justified war; we were attacked by the Axis Powers.  And even then we waited until we were attacked.

We need to stop being the world policeman and let nations deal with their own issues.

Yeah Moochelle--shut up.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You forgot Kennedy.  We already had troops in SE Asia while Kennedy was still alive. Johnson did the big escalation.

You forgot Eisenhour before that.  And the French before that... and on and on and on.  Because western European society - that includes us, since that is what we are mainly derived from - can't leave other people alone.  At least not for the last couple of thousand years or so....

[Hoss]

You forgot Eisenhour before that.  And the French before that... and on and on and on.  Because western European society - that includes us, since that is what we are mainly derived from - can't leave other people alone.  At least not for the last couple of thousand years or so....

I didn't Kennedy try to bring the troops home with a couple of executive actions...then Johnson rescinded them after he was executed.

[Red Arrow]

I didn't Kennedy try to bring the troops home with a couple of executive actions...then Johnson rescinded them after he was executed.

At the present moment, I remember Laos being the hot spot before Viet Nam.  Neither looked good to a kid in Jr High.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I didn't Kennedy try to bring the troops home with a couple of executive actions...then Johnson rescinded them after he was executed.

No.  Kennedy sent more advisors on top of Eisenhour.  It was the "plan" to contain communism.  Even after the mess in Korea - the one we still "enjoy" today...

[heironymouspasparagus]

At the present moment, I remember Laos being the hot spot before Viet Nam.  Neither looked good to a kid in Jr High.

No.  Viet Nam was going on even before WWII.  Laos had issues, but VN got the big attention for some reason.  Probably because they had an elected government - Ho Chi Minh - that we didn't like.  Regime change.  Kind of like what we wanted to do in Venezuela with Chavez....

In Viet Nam, we really started action after our CIA (OSS) appointed dictator started losing big time.



And NO -  Ho was not a "good guy".  Both sides were brutal dictators....one claimed to be Communist, so that's the one we had to be against no matter what.  Remember "McCarthy Era"....Murdoch Era....

[Gaspar]

We really need to stop this nation-builder thing.  We suck at it.  Actually, everyone sucks at it.  You cannot force democracy or "freedom," because the vary act of force negates the intension.

Democracy is a struggle that takes a long time, and must be carried out by the people.  It's a circular evolution.  Tyranny > Revolution > Democracy > Socialism > Tyranny > Revolution > Democracy > Socialism > Tyranny > Revolution > Democracy > Socialism >. . .  Democracy is never permanent and never identical.  There is no set recipe for this cookie.

The spanner in the works for Iraq (and much of the Middle East) is theology. It changes the equation.  In these cultures, the religious leadership makes policy based on doctrine, and the governments simply act as puppets.  So unfortunately, no matter what they call a form of government, its development is arrested at the Tyranny level with varying degrees of freedom that waver back and forth, yet remain wholly (or holy) dictated.

We are very arrogant to think that "everyone wants freedom" or that we can deliver it like a pizza, by getting rid of one puppet and installing another.

Our weakness (and the reason we make this mistake over and over again) is that we have allowed these tyrannical governments to have a hand in controlling our economy through energy policy. We've put the collar on and are allowing the dogs to walk us. If we ever find the guts to get past that (through our own energy independence), then all we will need to focus on is keeping the dogs out of the house.  We don't need to feed them, we don't need to pet them, and we certainly don't need to pick up their smile.  

[AquaMan]

No.  Kennedy sent more advisors on top of Eisenhour.  It was the "plan" to contain communism.  Even after the mess in Korea - the one we still "enjoy" today...

Your time frame is off. He did send advisors early on. Towards the end, Kennedy had expressed privately (according to his brother) that he was questioning our presence there since it was beginning to look like a sinkhole (my words, not his). That didn't sit well with the hawks. Johnson feared it had some role in his execution. Thus a new conspiracy theory emerged.

There were VN opportunities all over the world as our paranoia over communism bloomed. We chose the one with potential oil reserves in the Gulf.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Your time frame is off. He did send advisors early on. Towards the end, Kennedy had expressed privately (according to his brother) that he was questioning our presence there since it was beginning to look like a sinkhole (my words, not his). That didn't sit well with the hawks. Johnson feared it had some role in his execution. Thus a new conspiracy theory emerged.

There were VN opportunities all over the world as our paranoia over communism bloomed. We chose the one with potential oil reserves in the Gulf.

He was a rational, thinking man, but he didn't have time to back out of it.  And the rest is history....

[TheArtist]

A little Trekker advice from Wikipedia...

the Prime Directive is the guiding principle of the United Federation of Planets. The Prime Directive ... prohibits Starfleet personnel from interfering with the internal development of alien civilizations. This conceptual law applies particularly to civilizations which are below a certain threshold of development, preventing starship crews from using their superior technology to impose their own values or ideals on them.

"The Prime Directive is not just a set of rules. It is a philosophy, and a very correct one. History has proven again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

—Jean-Luc Picard, Symbiosis[2]


The Prime Directive was indicated to apply not only to just pre-warp civilizations, but also, indeed, to any culture with whom Starfleet comes into contact. In such situations, the Prime Directive forbids any involvement with a civilization without the expressed consent or invitation of the lawful leaders of that society, and absolutely forbids any involvement whatsoever in the internal politics of a civilization.

In a philosophical discussion regarding the Prime Directive. Troi and LaForge argue that if there is a "cosmic plan", that the presence of Enterprise and its crew is also to be included in that plan and that this alone allows them a legitimate claim to act on behalf of a people in need. Captain Picard argues that one's personal certitude is not relevant and that the Prime Directive is meant to prevent "us" from letting our emotions overwhelm our judgment.

[heironymouspasparagus]

In a philosophical discussion regarding the Prime Directive. Troi and LaForge argue that if there is a "cosmic plan", that the presence of Enterprise and its crew is also to be included in that plan and that this alone allows them a legitimate claim to act on behalf of a people in need. Captain Picard argues that one's personal certitude is not relevant and that the Prime Directive is meant to prevent "us" from letting our emotions overwhelm our judgment.

Nice ideals...but we are insufficiently advanced enough of a civilization to let noble ideals get in the way of our "western European" mindset of piety, arrogance, and an overwhelming desire to travel to strange new lands, meet exotic people, and kill them!

Or at least pay their leaders to do the dirty work for us so we can get the oil/coal/chromium/tantalum/diamonds/"commodity of choice dujour".....


Collectively, as a nation, we would do well to go back and start re-reading the collected works of Charles Dickens and David Thoreau.  I know....many will say they read them in high school, but most of those got the "Cliff's Notes" or just watched the old movies - thereby missing the saturation in the topic needed.  Of course, the English and Americans didn't take any of their work to heart either.....

[Conan71]

That is your way to evaluate all wars?

Obama is winning then.

http://www.icasualties.org/

Nice try, except we were already drawing down in Iraq by 2009.

Look at Afghanistan, 1701 killed since 2009 out of a total of 2331 American troops KIA in Afghanistan.