Tulsa Schools and New Standardized Testing & Common Core

[sgrizzle]

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!

Even at just under $10k, that is $250,000 per classroom, we are only giving the teacher about 40k of that, maybe account for 10k for air conditioning and maintenance. Where does the other 200 go? The facilities are bought under different funding.

It just so happens than the current amount of Oklahoma per student spend is almost identical to the rate at Riverfield, a very successful local private school. They somehow manage to graduate children, and they don't have bond money to pay for capital costs.

[TheArtist]

Again, what I would like to see with these school comparisons is schools that have a similar number of "students with english as a second language, students in poverty, etc.".  Or at least see how "similar students" compare in each school.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Even at just under $10k, that is $250,000 per classroom, we are only giving the teacher about 40k of that, maybe account for 10k for air conditioning and maintenance. Where does the other 200 go? The facilities are bought under different funding.

It just so happens than the current amount of Oklahoma per student spend is almost identical to the rate at Riverfield, a very successful local private school. They somehow manage to graduate children, and they don't have bond money to pay for capital costs.

A big chunk of it goes to high schools buying new stadiums....


Tremendously great question - one I have asked myself a lot!  It is in there somewhere, and I just can't see why there are not new books when needed.

[Conan71]

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!

Compelling stats, but are there different laws for compulsory attendance through a certain age?  Is home schooling higher in Oklahoma and that's not accounted for?  Are the requirements for graduation lower in those states?  Higher or lower percentage of Hispanic students who may or may not have assimilation/language issues?

Those are important metrics to have to really get an understanding of what the spending vs. graduation rate really means.

I'd surmise drop out rates likely have more to do with peer group and family influence than lack of spending per pupil.  Two things which could have an impact is Oklahoma ranks high in meth use and teen pregnancy.  If the student or parents are spaced out, they don't care whether or not the student graduates. 

Sorry to be skeptical, but I've always found the "throw more money at a problem" approach to be a lazy way of dealing with it and it seldom reaches to the core of the real issue.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Compelling stats, but are there different laws for compulsory attendance through a certain age?  Is home schooling higher in Oklahoma and that's not accounted for?  Are the requirements for graduation lower in those states?  Higher or lower percentage of Hispanic students who may or may not have assimilation/language issues?

Those are important metrics to have to really get an understanding of what the spending vs. graduation rate really means.

I'd surmise drop out rates likely have more to do with peer group and family influence than lack of spending per pupil.  Two things which could have an impact is Oklahoma ranks high in meth use and teen pregnancy.  If the student or parents are spaced out, they don't care whether or not the student graduates.  

Sorry to be skeptical, but I've always found the "throw more money at a problem" approach to be a lazy way of dealing with it and it seldom reaches to the core of the real issue.

I have direct personal experience with Iowa.  When I returned to OK from a 4 year stint in the Iowa public schools, I got to "coast" for two full years.

And about 1/3 of the family (and it's a big family) with direct personal experience with Iowa and Missouri.  All of whom have gone through the public school systems - successfully.  And been better prepared coming out the high school door than the corresponding Okie...

Am seeing similar trends with friends and one family member who are now in Minnesota and Wisconsin - input limited to just the last 3 years, but there seems to be a similar disparity.  As much as I hate winter, I probably should have taken the herd north many years ago to get the education!


More money alone is not the only solution - it does get you into the same ballpark - you can buy books!!  And arts funding - remember how we have been gutting the study of the arts in recent years?  Well, actually, at every opportunity for decades.....

And as I have mentioned - why do we not study/investigate/learn from other states.  The end result seems to be an intellectual inbreeding that keeps us in our stagnant ways.  And this is absolutely obvious in the governor and legislature right now!  It is an insular, isolationist mind set that demonizes outside ideas/thought and keeps us from learning from our mistakes and making better progress than what we should.

Sometimes we just get it so right, it makes ya wanna jump for joy....I heard this on radio and have read it online.  We have a jewel in Tulsa that others out of state are looking at.  Why can't Oklahoma go look at out of state programs that are working well and bring them here??  Not just pre-school....

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/22/305907705/whos-getting-preschool-right-researchers-point-to-tulsa




I would love to be able to be a "fly-on-the-wall" just to see how many go to this link, and then how many more go to page 2 and read the whole story....THAT would be an education in itself!!

[Gaspar]

A big chunk of it goes to high schools buying new stadiums....


Tremendously great question - one I have asked myself a lot!  It is in there somewhere, and I just can't see why there are not new books when needed.

Perhaps the question needs to be asked differently. Lets look at what textbooks cost.  When districts make decisions on books, the publishers are shielded from competition and that allows the entire industry to bring prices to unrealistic market levels.  The same quality book under any other title sold in a bookstore would fetch a fraction of the price.  The guaranteed volume of a district or state contract should bring the price down even further, but there is no competitive pressure so the profit margin remains thousands of times higher than the cost to research, write, publish and distribute these books.

Holt McDougal Larson Algebra 1 Common Core - $96
Holt McDougal Geometry - $110.50 (used)
Pearson Algebra 2 - $90.27
Paragon English Comp - $87.49
Holt McDougal Mathematics Student Edition Grade 6 - $69.20

I doubt text books will be around much longer.  Most private schools have gone to electronic tablets and more interactive learning, however the publishers are aware of this and have already figured out ways to publish their works in apps that cost hundreds of dollars to license. 

Looking at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, the company that publishes most of the public school text books, we find some interesting comparisons to the business services sector as a whole.



and P/E growth


So, perhaps it's not that the schools cannot afford books, it's just that they can't afford these books?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Perhaps the question needs to be asked differently. Lets look at what textbooks cost.  When districts make decisions on books, the publishers are shielded from competition and that allows the entire industry to bring prices to unrealistic market levels.  The same quality book under any other title sold in a bookstore would fetch a fraction of the price.  The guaranteed volume of a district or state contract should bring the price down even further, but there is no competitive pressure so the profit margin remains thousands of times higher than the cost to research, write, publish and distribute these books.

Holt McDougal Larson Algebra 1 Common Core - $96
Holt McDougal Geometry - $110.50 (used)
Pearson Algebra 2 - $90.27
Paragon English Comp - $87.49
Holt McDougal Mathematics Student Edition Grade 6 - $69.20

I doubt text books will be around much longer.  Most private schools have gone to electronic tablets and more interactive learning, however the publishers are aware of this and have already figured out ways to publish their works in apps that cost hundreds of dollars to license. 

Looking at Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, the company that publishes most of the public school text books, we find some interesting comparisons to the business services sector as a whole.



and P/E growth


So, perhaps it's not that the schools cannot afford books, it's just that they can't afford these books?

Just one of many areas where an independent "look" is warranted - schools are a huge bureaucracy and like ODOT, the turnpike authority, the county commission system, the state legislature - ALL need oversight and corrective action.  Won't happen as long as we keep electing the same batch of clowns there today.  But we loves our Failin', Kern, Shannon, Inhofe, etc....

[Gaspar]

Just one of many areas where an independent "look" is warranted - schools are a huge bureaucracy and like ODOT, the turnpike authority, the county commission system, the state legislature - ALL need oversight and corrective action.  Won't happen as long as we keep electing the same batch of clowns there today.  But we loves our Failin', Kern, Shannon, Inhofe, etc....

We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s. 
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

[TheArtist]

We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s. 
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

Everything, private or government must always reform.  Change or die.  The world changes, demographics change, technology changes, expectations change, and if your organization doesn't change, you will fail. 

Even if you created the perfect school that was churning out perfect students today, the world, and your student's would change and if that perfect school did not change it's methods, technology, etc. it would surely no longer be perfect.

[Gaspar]

Everything, private or government must always reform.  Change or die.  The world changes, demographics change, technology changes, expectations change, and if your organization doesn't change, you will fail.  

Even if you created the perfect school that was churning out perfect students today, the world, and your student's would change and if that perfect school did not change it's methods, technology, etc. it would surely no longer be perfect.

Not interchangeable.

There is a difference between reform and innovation.  Innovation is proactive, reform is a reaction to failure.

Private institutions (schools, businesses, whatever) must innovate to survive.  They must compete in an open system.  They have to produce a better product or they die.

Public institutions should do the same, but most are shielded from competition.  As a result, they continue to exist far beyond the point of failure.  They are propped up through public funding, until things become so ridiculously absurd that "reform" is the only option.  Reform is always a result of failure, corruption, or other malfeasance.

Politicians love reform, because it offers an opportunity to point a finger at the other guy, but as long as there is no competitive pressure, their work will eventually be fodder for another politicians future reforms.

Look at what happens when we create charter schools, voucher systems, and magnet programs.  We give schools the freedom to innovate, and compete with programs that rival, and in many cases exceed the private offerings. We reduce the need to reform through the simple act of liberating educators, not throwing more money at the problems.

[heironymouspasparagus]

We have been "reforming" public schools since the 1800s.  
What if. . .

Schools, public and private had to compete for students?
What if they had to compete on quality of education?
What if they had to compete for the best teachers?
What if parents were given a "golden ticket" that would allow them to choose the best school (public or private) for their kids?

I know.  Pipe-dream.

Reform on!

I know you keep getting tripped up on some of those pesky little details, but they are important, not just to the student, but to society as a whole!   As I said before, if the private schools are required to take - and keep - all comers, then it might work!  Will never work without - THAT is the pipe dream!

[AquaMan]

The sheepherders are being exposed. Turns out of the 30% of public school students who failed the reading test, 46.8% of them were special needs kids taking regular ed tests. Factor out failures by locale and English as second language and the schools look pretty good.

I am familiar with both subsets of students. If your goal is to make public schools look bad this would do the trick.

[Conan71]

I know you keep getting tripped up on some of those pesky little details, but they are important, not just to the student, but to society as a whole!   As I said before, if the private schools are required to take - and keep - all comers, then it might work!  Will never work without - THAT is the pipe dream!

That's the whole point in them being PRIVATE.  They are exempt from some regulations that have a tendency to hobble the educational experience in PUBLIC schools.

[TheArtist]

Not interchangeable.

There is a difference between reform and innovation.  Innovation is proactive, reform is a reaction to failure.

Private institutions (schools, businesses, whatever) must innovate to survive.  They must compete in an open system.  They have to produce a better product or they die.

Public institutions should do the same, but most are shielded from competition.  As a result, they continue to exist far beyond the point of failure.  They are propped up through public funding, until things become so ridiculously absurd that "reform" is the only option.  Reform is always a result of failure, corruption, or other malfeasance.

Politicians love reform, because it offers an opportunity to point a finger at the other guy, but as long as there is no competitive pressure, their work will eventually be fodder for another politicians future reforms.

Look at what happens when we create charter schools, voucher systems, and magnet programs.  We give schools the freedom to innovate, and compete with programs that rival, and in many cases exceed the private offerings. We reduce the need to reform through the simple act of liberating educators, not throwing more money at the problems.

I don't even know where to start with all that inane dribble and mischaracterization of what has been said.  But for starters, if you think that private companies or private schools all succeed and even exist beyond the point of failure, and don't need reform, don't offer the opportunity for someone to point the finger at the other guy and be fodder for anothers "future reforms"... well you must live on a different planet than the rest of us.  Sears/K-Mart anyone?

Another thing, I am not against charter schools, voucher systems, or magnet programs, but anytime someone mentions that there may need to be smaller class sizes or perhaps more help for students with english as a second language the responses come back immediately as if the person was advocating for "MORE SPENDING!!!!!" "GOVERNMENT IS THE ONLY SOLUTION!!!!".  Never said that.  When people reply to those types of comments with that type of response it sounds like they are coming from a position of rote Ideology (if you don't agree with me exactly and in every way any deviation means you are completely the other extreme and this is what you mean" period. and not coming from a place where there is room for honest discussion and learning and you sound utterly moronic.  

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's the whole point in them being PRIVATE.  They are exempt from some regulations that have a tendency to hobble the educational experience in PUBLIC schools.

And those differences that accrue due to the separation is what is causing a huge amount of trouble now....that will only get worse.