Tulsa Schools and New Standardized Testing & Common Core

[Gaspar]

At the same time, you don't want the education of the brightest being disrupted or dumbed down by forcing them to sit through remedial instruction just to keep it "fair".

". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet axe and saw!"

[Conan71]

". . .and the trees are all kept equal by hatchet axe and saw!"

Geddy!

[heironymouspasparagus]

At the same time, you don't want the education of the brightest being disrupted or dumbed down by forcing them to sit through remedial instruction just to keep it "fair".

No, I don't.   Oklahoma obviously needs some outside help, and Iowa education would be a great place to start. 

What is means is that there must be some 'common' classes - the whole 'mainstreaming' effort we have seen for several decades, but there must also be some parsing among skill levels - even more than there is with "AP" type structures - with extra attention applied for some.  It takes a much more complicated system and that just isn't gonna happen due to all the factions that exist today.  So, as of now, we have private schools to "cherry-pick" and the public schools muddle along with their ongoing mess.  Evolution is occurring - just a question of how society is gonna fare at the end of these experiments.  I don't hold out much hope until there is dramatically greater parental participation.  And that hasn't happened in 100+ years so far....

[Conan71]

I don't hold out much hope until there is dramatically greater parental participation. 

Everything else is pretty much meaningless without that.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Everything else is pretty much meaningless without that.

I have a whole herd of teachers in the family, and to a person, they all say that is the number one issue/obstacle to teaching!!   

Well, besides inadequate state funding...those hundreds of millions of cuts while subsidizing billionaires with bigger hundreds of millions of breaks....

[TheArtist]

I have a whole herd of teachers in the family, and to a person, they all say that is the number one issue/obstacle to teaching!!  

Well, besides inadequate state funding...those hundreds of millions of cuts while subsidizing billionaires with bigger hundreds of millions of breaks....

What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

[Gaspar]

What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

Waaaaat? We can't just throw money at it?

It seems we are recognizing a culture issue.

The parents that expect the government to provide an education for their children are the same ones that simply expect all of the other things they are entitled to.  They have been trained to have expectations instead of ambitions.  We unfortunately know lots of them.  They remand their children, for 6 hours a day to the state, and could care less what happens during that time, because it's FREE, and it's not their responsibility.  They don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, because that's on their time.  When the kids get home in the evenings, they pop on SpongeBob (the other free babysitter), crack a beer and get upset if the kids bug them because they're tired from working all day for a boss that doesn't pay them what they think they are entitled to.   

The politicians love these parents, because these parents vote, and anything you promise from the state they will vote for.  If they want their kids to be smarterer, they will vote for more money for schools gosh-darnit!  If you promise them free healthcare, they will vote for it in a heartbeat! A vote to force employers to increase wages? Darn tootin!  Free day-care?  Whoohoo! 3 hour work week? Hells yeah!

But. . .if you ask them to sacrifice time, energy, or make personal financial sacrifices for the sake of their kids, you've got a fight on your hands, because that is the responsibility of the government! 

When you make something "free" (I know, but they don get it), you destroy its value.  These parents have been trained that educating their child is not their responsibility. They have no investment in it, and no accountability to participate.  When there is a failure, they are easily led to the conclusion that it's a funding issue, and are the first ones in line to vote to throw more money at it. Eventually you get school systems spending over $19,000 per year per student (NYC http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/governments/cb13-92.html) with no increase in academic performance.  When more money fails to do the trick, the solution is of course more money.

You won't get more parent involvement without parent investment.  Change will only come with choice.


The state is essentially an apparatus of compulsion and coercion. The characteristic feature of its activities is to compel people through the application or the threat of force to behave otherwise than they would like to behave. – Ludwig von Mises

[heironymouspasparagus]

What do they tell you should be done about it "aka getting better parental participation"?  

Are we going to have a new government social engineering program to implement it?  Perhaps create a whole new infrastructure of  "good parenting" schools?  Perhaps we should just point and shake our fingers at these people while forcefully saying "Be a good parent!" and that will fix it, they will suddenly become capable people with good parenting and life skills/habits?

Whats the solution to "bad parenting and poor parent participation"?

Think it through and I bet you will find it will be less costly, less time consuming, and take less effort to fix things on the kid end versus the parent end.  Especially when you consider that many of those failing kids may soon likely be the "failing" parents.

That's the rub, ain't it?  It's a catch 22 situation.   No good way from parent end.  MUST start with getting the kids raised up to care in the first place.   Tulsa has some "poster-child" efforts going on with pre-school now...maybe some of that will soak in and "stick"....

But we as a society have been at it a long time, and seem "stuck" on about a 25 - 30% overall failure rate with our kids.  (Non-graduates of high school).

[heironymouspasparagus]

Waaaaat? We can't just throw money at it?

It seems we are recognizing a culture issue.

The parents that expect the government to provide an education for their children are the same ones that simply expect all of the other things they are entitled to.  They have been trained to have expectations instead of ambitions.  We unfortunately know lots of them.  They remand their children, for 6 hours a day to the state, and could care less what happens during that time, because it's FREE, and it's not their responsibility.  They don't show up to parent/teacher conferences, because that's on their time.  When the kids get home in the evenings, they pop on SpongeBob (the other free babysitter), crack a beer and get upset if the kids bug them because they're tired from working all day for a boss that doesn't pay them what they think they are entitled to.   

The politicians love these parents, because these parents vote, and anything you promise from the state they will vote for.  If they want their kids to be smarterer, they will vote for more money for schools gosh-darnit!  If you promise them free healthcare, they will vote for it in a heartbeat! A vote to force employers to increase wages? Darn tootin!  Free day-care?  Whoohoo! 3 hour work week? Hells yeah!

But. . .if you ask them to sacrifice time, energy, or make personal financial sacrifices for the sake of their kids, you've got a fight on your hands, because that is the responsibility of the government! 

When you make something "free" (I know, but they don get it), you destroy its value.  These parents have been trained that educating their child is not their responsibility. They have no investment in it, and no accountability to participate.  When there is a failure, they are easily led to the conclusion that it's a funding issue, and are the first ones in line to vote to throw more money at it. Eventually you get school systems spending over $19,000 per year per student (NYC http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/governments/cb13-92.html) with no increase in academic performance.  When more money fails to do the trick, the solution is of course more money.

You won't get more parent involvement without parent investment.  Change will only come with choice.

Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

[Conan71]

Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

Highest spending per student a couple of years ago was Washington D.C.  Worst outcomes in the entire United States.  Spending per pupil simply does not equate to success, there are far too many other factors.

[Gaspar]

Be nice!  That is probably someone's mother!!


Rest of it...platitudes.   We are so far away from New York in spending - that is valueless comparison/analysis.  Compare closer.  Does TX get better outcomes?  'Cause they certainly spend more on teacher pay and equipment/infrastructure than we!  Remember:  $200+ million in cuts to education! 

Perfect example^^^^

Again, the TEACHERS are the ones who say the #1 issue is parent participation, and immediately the liberals scream MORE MONEY!

Comparison's are useless if you are comparing apples to oranges. Putting new tires on a car won't make it handle any better if there is no driver.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Highest spending per student a couple of years ago was Washington D.C.  Worst outcomes in the entire United States.  Spending per pupil simply does not equate to success, there are far too many other factors.

And we are not anything like Washington DC.  We are however, somewhat similar to TX.  And KS - more than 50% more than us.  MO - also similar, spending a lot more per.

Apples and apples.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Perfect example^^^^

Again, the TEACHERS are the ones who say the #1 issue is parent participation, and immediately the liberals scream MORE MONEY!

Comparison's are useless if you are comparing apples to oranges. Putting new tires on a car won't make it handle any better if there is no driver.

See above note.  It IS apples/apples.

Number 2 was the FACT that they cannot get books or other minimal school infrastructure do the the $200+ million CUTs, on top of the woefully inadequate funding from previous years.  Another point you conveniently ignore.  Reality's kind of tough sometimes, isn't it?

And even when a dire need is tragically demonstrated - kids killed in tornadoes last year - we have a Failin' Governor and legislature who are still looking for ways to get around just doing what should be done - put storm shelters in every school.   That might mean they don't get to keep their 1/4% tax cuts and they haven't been able to figure out a way to skim their "10%" on the work that would get done.  You are right about one tiny little bit of that - there is no competent driver in the state government!

Would love to see your capital expenditure discussions at work....that would be hilarious!  And I bet it is a whole other story when it is YOUR ox getting gored....you don't need computers - use the sales books like the waitress at your local greasy spoon uses to take orders.  More than adequate!  Anything else is just wasting money.



Highest spending pretty much tied between New York and DC.

[sgrizzle]

Per-Pupil Educational Expenditures Adjusted For Regional Cost Differences

Year(s): 2010 | Data Type: Currency

Data Provided by:
National KIDS COUNT
Location   Data Type   2010
Kansas   Currency   $11,785
Missouri   Currency   $10,747
Oklahoma   Currency   $9,430
Texas   Currency   $8,882

[heironymouspasparagus]

Per-Pupil Educational Expenditures Adjusted For Regional Cost Differences

Year(s): 2010 | Data Type: Currency

Data Provided by:
National KIDS COUNT
Location   Data Type   2010
Kansas   Currency   $11,785
Missouri   Currency   $10,747
Oklahoma   Currency   $9,430
Texas   Currency   $8,882

Texas was a bad example....as always.  About most things.....

KS is at $12,700. And even in 2010, they were at $12,200....slightly higher than that site.
http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/SpendingPerPupil/tabid/1271/Default.aspx

There is 10 - 15% difference that can only be part of the story.  That is the difference between getting books and not.  The parents must be another big part. 

Iowa is another one that spends just a little bit more than OK and their outcomes are vastly different.  Looking at graduation rates (more meaningful than dropout rates, but closely related), Iowa graduates 89%.  OK graduates about 78%.  That is huge!!  We are failing for some (or several) reasons for over 20% of our kids! 

KS is running about 85% grad rate (2013)....


We need help.  There are good examples out there to study!!