Clear Water Carwash on Cherry Street....

[TheArtist]

Where I get confused is what is "pedestrian zoning" exactly?  I don't think Main Mall could have been more walkable than it was.  What improvements does pedestrian zoning provide that helps an area like that?

I suspect some of the failure of the pedestrian mall on Main Street in downtown was also due to terrible timing that came along with a fairly sour economy in Tulsa in the early 1980's and a lot of energy-dependent jobs which used to be downtown had gone to either the suburbs or Houston.  Williams moved much of their operations to the office park at 66 & Yale that now houses Warren Clinic and various other companies.

Interesting, just as soon as I wrote that, I pulled up this old blog from Batesline from 2005 that indicated this was a dying trend around the rest of the country when this was instituted here in the late 1970's.

http://www.batesline.com/archives/2005/07/lost-tulsa-the.html

Pedestrian zoning will create a contiguous area of pedestrian friendly development.  Aka, development that is attractive to people to walk past, that is engaging, that is permeable (lots of windows to see in and out of, and doors with people going in and out of them), that is comfortable and takes into account pedestrians needs as it relates to weather (includes awnings and or loggias and or trees, to shade from heat and sun, protect from rain, calm the wind, etc.)

Pedestrian zoning would not have allowed the Tulsa World to have built that monstrosity there on main street as it is, nor would there be that pedestrian unfriendly wall that my kites are painted on, nor would that plaza and those black buildings have been allowed to have been built as they are either, then there are also other non-pedestrian friendly developments all up and down main street in that area.  All of those buildings could of course have been built, but not built as they were as affronts to pedestrian traffic rather than attractors to pedestrian traffic. If the area had been zoned as pedestrian friendly, then even if downtown suffered other changes, once the tide changed and growth began anew, this area would have been in a far better position to take advantage of that rather than be in the difficult position it is in now with large, anchored in, "pedestrian dead zones" hurting those few pedestrian friendly developments which remain.

Remember how Waite Phillips decided to buy up the property across from the Philtower in order to develop it himself in order to make sure that what went in across from his investment would be a positive rather than a negative?  Not all of us can afford to do that which is where zoning can help in a downtown, pedestrian friendly environment.  Think of the poor businesses now facing that TW building on main street.  That facade hurts the building owners and the businesses in them. Not all streets can have pedestrian friendly development along them even in a great downtown, but surely thats what you would want on your "pedestrian mall" and your main street of all places.

Yes indeed other situations conspired to hurt downtown and other pedestrian areas of the city, like 6th street in the Pearl District.  Loss of interest in those types of areas as peoples attentions shifted to the suburbs, exodus of numerous companies from downtown, demographic shifts, etc.  However, redevelopment did occur in those areas during that time, but that development rather than reinforcing any pedestrian fabric was more often than not of the type that now stands as barriers to redeveloping these areas as the trend has shifted back to people being interested in living in a good urban environment. One can understand peoples ignorance of these things say 30 years ago, but during the last few decades there is really no excuse for not having rezoned these areas to have begun promoting pedestrian friendly development instead of auto oriented development, for the "writing has been on the wall" so to speak for quite some time now showing what went wrong with these areas and what the future was going to hold if we continued on our current path (as we are still doing downtown). 

[SXSW]

Don't we now have a better zoning code for the Pearl District?  Why not expand that south to include Cherry Street, and west to include downtown?

[Conan71]

Artist,

I guess I'm still lost on the issue of pedestrian-friendly.  I'm thinking back to when I was the ad director at Urban Tulsa in the early 1990's when our first office was in an outer-facing small storefront in the Pythian Building.  Fifth Street terminated just east of our office and Main was still the pedestrian mall from 6th street to the Williams complex.  I used to walk to all my clients up and down there as well as further areas around downtown.  Partly because I enjoy walking, but also due to the donkey-pain of finding parking and plugging a meter if I drove a few blocks away in downtown.

I thought of pedestrian-friendly meaning wide sidewalks and places to shop or eat being in short, convenient walking distances.  Renberg's still operated a store downtown and there was a gallery or two and perhaps a gift shop on the mall, if I recall correctly.  There were plenty of places to eat or bank.  I never thought of monoliths like the Tulsa World or the big wall at the Adam's Mark (what it was called then) or the Darth Vader towers as being pedestrian-unfriendly.

I think of Cherry Street as being pedestrian-friendly since the sidewalks span from Utica to Peoria and there is no shortage of retail store fronts or eateries to explore.  Utica Square is another development I think of as pedestrian-friendly, and sounds as if most of it would fit the definition as you explain it.  Complexes like Tulsa Hills are not pedestrian-friendly in any way I can conjure in my mind.

I'm not challenging you on your interpretation versus mine, simply pointing out I'm fascinated that there are different ways of viewing what is or is not pedestrian-friendly.  All this time, I've always thought of downtown being that way when, by the planning definitions of it, it is not.  I always enjoy getting your take on development and learning from your posts.

[carltonplace]

Parts of Cherry Street are pedestrian friendly, but there are some obstacles.

1. Traffic and pedestrians are jammed together and at odds. I often see people trying to get into their car but can't open the door because of traffic, or they can't cross the street because no one will stop for them.

2. The back of Marquette creates a dead zone on 15th and traffic congestion during events

3. There are no protected pedestrian crossings

4. Lots of bike racks, but no bike lanes.

[TheArtist]

Artist,


I thought of pedestrian-friendly meaning wide sidewalks and places to shop or eat being in short, convenient walking distances.  Renberg's still operated a store downtown and there was a gallery or two and perhaps a gift shop on the mall, if I recall correctly.  There were plenty of places to eat or bank.  I never thought of monoliths like the Tulsa World or the big wall at the Adam's Mark (what it was called then) or the Darth Vader towers as being pedestrian-unfriendly.

Thank you for the response.  Want to point out something you may not have noticed in your response that goes to some of my points. First you do mention that pedestrian friendly means wide sidewalks and places to shop or eat being in short convenient walking distances.  I too agree those are important.  Then you mention "monoliths like the Tulsa World or the big wall at the Adam's Mark (what it was called then) or the Darth Vader towers as being pedestrian-unfriendly"  I would like to point out that those are NOT full of places to shop or eat.  

And to continue, pedestrian friendly is not just about what is there, but how it is there.  How "it" interacts with the street, or should we say, wide sidewalks.  

Might want to watch this video it has some examples of good streets.  Look for "fine grain" (aka lots of small buildings or various entrances and exits in large buildings, lots of shops, restaurants next to each other and or interesting things, interesting architecture, etc. along the sidewalks, and so on). Notice all the awnings, loggias, covered areas of all sorts that protect people from the elements, and or trees (yes indeed, even Utica Square has those), and notice how this compares to the TW building, the Adams Mark wall, and the Darth Vader towers, etc. which do not have these elements and are not places where people would like to walk.  

http://www.streetfilms.org/melbourne/  

[sgrizzle]

Don't we now have a better zoning code for the Pearl District?  Why not expand that south to include Cherry Street, and west to include downtown?

We can't get TMAPC to approve the pearl district zoning for the pearl district yet.

[Conan71]

Parts of Cherry Street are pedestrian friendly, but there are some obstacles.

1. Traffic and pedestrians are jammed together and at odds. I often see people trying to get into their car but can't open the door because of traffic, or they can't cross the street because no one will stop for them.

2. The back of Marquette creates a dead zone on 15th and traffic congestion during events

3. There are no protected pedestrian crossings

4. Lots of bike racks, but no bike lanes.

I have not noticed before, but are there flashing crosswalk signs on Cherry St.?  Flashers and "Yield To Pedestrians In Crosswalk" might help the plight of crossing since most motorists ignore the basic law that you are supposed to do just that.  Oklahoma seems to be the only place out of anywhere MC and I go where motorists are ignorant or indifferent of crosswalk laws.  Hell most people now seem to consider red lights and stop signs as optional.

[Conan71]

Thank you for the response.  Want to point out something you may not have noticed in your response that goes to some of my points. First you do mention that pedestrian friendly means wide sidewalks and places to shop or eat being in short convenient walking distances.  I too agree those are important.  Then you mention "monoliths like the Tulsa World or the big wall at the Adam's Mark (what it was called then) or the Darth Vader towers as being pedestrian-unfriendly"  I would like to point out that those are NOT full of places to shop or eat.  

And to continue, pedestrian friendly is not just about what is there, but how it is there.  How "it" interacts with the street, or should we say, wide sidewalks.  

Might want to watch this video it has some examples of good streets.  Look for "fine grain" (aka lots of small buildings or various entrances and exits in large buildings, lots of shops, restaurants next to each other and or interesting things, interesting architecture, etc. along the sidewalks, and so on). Notice all the awnings, loggias, covered areas of all sorts that protect people from the elements, and or trees (yes indeed, even Utica Square has those), and notice how this compares to the TW building, the Adams Mark wall, and the Darth Vader towers, etc. which do not have these elements and are not places where people would like to walk.  

http://www.streetfilms.org/melbourne/  

Actually, the Williams Forum still existed at that time, though it was waning down to the skating rink and was close to being taken over for office space.  When it opened in the early/mid '80's it was a pretty vibrant shopping and eating destination, IIRC.  I'll take a look at the video when I get time a little later today.

[TheArtist]

Actually, the Williams Forum still existed at that time, though it was waning down to the skating rink and was close to being taken over for office space.  When it opened in the early/mid '80's it was a pretty vibrant shopping and eating destination, IIRC.  I'll take a look at the video when I get time a little later today.

Lol, what I meant was not full of outside sidewalk/pedestrian friendly places.

[Conan71]

Someone from Tulsa upon visiting Melbourne would be saying: "This is the most unfriendly city for cars!" 

I get a better idea what kind of development and street structure you are talking about now.  The issue becomes how do you incentivize a private/public partnership to develop pedestrian areas like Melbourne has when much of what we have downtown is re-purposed slab-side buildings with wide boulevards?  That was more or less what was done with Main Mall albeit without much coordination from the property owners.

Interesting when you mentioned Waite Phillips and the fellow in the film was talking about the arcades.  First thing that popped in my head was the lobby of the Philcade and it's original intended purpose.

I think the biggest problem you have with our city leaders is what people like myself have been used to for decades here.  I remember going downtown with my mother in the early 1970's and seeing people walking about at lunch time.  Buses dropping off people on their way to work in the mornings and picking them up in the evenings.  To me sidewalks have always meant pedestrian-friendly (for the most part).  I think that's the kind of myopia that you see with leaders like Dewey who think the same way.  (Geez, I just put myself in the same cart as Dewey?  WTH is wrong with me!)

There again, you are The Artist and you see things many of us don't.  It will probably take a younger generation of leadership to have a better vision of what an inner city looks like or even smaller districts around the city. 

For my part, I'm simply working toward a hoped-for working retirement in a small community in Southern Colorado.  I dream of wide-open spaces and little congestion.

[TheArtist]

Someone from Tulsa upon visiting Melbourne would be saying: "This is the most unfriendly city for cars!" 

I get a better idea what kind of development and street structure you are talking about now.  The issue becomes how do you incentivize a private/public partnership to develop pedestrian areas like Melbourne has when much of what we have downtown is re-purposed slab-side buildings with wide boulevards?  That was more or less what was done with Main Mall albeit without much coordination from the property owners.

Interesting when you mentioned Waite Phillips and the fellow in the film was talking about the arcades.  First thing that popped in my head was the lobby of the Philcade and it's original intended purpose.

I think the biggest problem you have with our city leaders is what people like myself have been used to for decades here.  I remember going downtown with my mother in the early 1970's and seeing people walking about at lunch time.  Buses dropping off people on their way to work in the mornings and picking them up in the evenings.  To me sidewalks have always meant pedestrian-friendly (for the most part).  I think that's the kind of myopia that you see with leaders like Dewey who think the same way.  (Geez, I just put myself in the same cart as Dewey?  WTH is wrong with me!)

There again, you are The Artist and you see things many of us don't.  It will probably take a younger generation of leadership to have a better vision of what an inner city looks like or even smaller districts around the city. 

For my part, I'm simply working toward a hoped-for working retirement in a small community in Southern Colorado.  I dream of wide-open spaces and little congestion.

Definitely reinforcing an idea I have wanted to tackle (once I make the time for it) which is to make a video showing good, pedestrian friendly, urban development ideas and "not good" ones lol.  I can talk/type till the cows come home but sometimes a picture can indeed be worth a thousand words.  Even that video I showed you was not the best and did not get across many concepts.  As for incentivizing to develop pedestrian areas, well the main thing you really need is zoning, Form Based Codes are one type (though a lot of them hate the comparison of Zoning and Form Based Codes).  We zone for auto oriented development and do quite well in creating that type of development as a result.  All ya got to do is do the same thing for pedestrian oriented development. 

[SXSW]

The PUD for this development goes for approval June 4.  The site plan shows demo of the car wash and one home behind Full Moon.  A new 2 story building (35 ft tall) constructed up to the sidewalk from the alley to Trenton along 15th.  Looks like 9,200 SF of restaurant space with a setback for a patio closer to the alley, and 9,200 SF of office space on the second floor.  Parking to the north along Trenton and an expanded parking area along St Louis north of Full Moon's lot (where the home will be demolished).  This should be a big improvement over the car wash...now we'll have to see what goes in there..

[Townsend]

The PUD for this development goes for approval June 4.  The site plan shows demo of the car wash and one home behind Full Moon.  A new 2 story building (35 ft tall) constructed up to the sidewalk from the alley to Trenton along 15th.  Looks like 9,200 SF of restaurant space with a setback for a patio closer to the alley, and 9,200 SF of office space on the second floor.  Parking to the north along Trenton and an expanded parking area along St Louis north of Full Moon's lot (where the home will be demolished).  This should be a big improvement over the car wash...now we'll have to see what goes in there..

Too bad they have to add the parking lot

[DowntownDan]

The PUD for this development goes for approval June 4.  The site plan shows demo of the car wash and one home behind Full Moon.  A new 2 story building (35 ft tall) constructed up to the sidewalk from the alley to Trenton along 15th.  Looks like 9,200 SF of restaurant space with a setback for a patio closer to the alley, and 9,200 SF of office space on the second floor.  Parking to the north along Trenton and an expanded parking area along St Louis north of Full Moon's lot (where the home will be demolished).  This should be a big improvement over the car wash...now we'll have to see what goes in there..

Any visual for the site plan?  It sounds like a good deal.  Up to the sidewalk, office space included.  Parking is necessary because Cherry Street draws from a wide area, glad to see its in the back consistent with the rest of the neighborhood.  I jog through Cherry Street quite often and it gets busy with cars and can be difficult to cross sometimes, but drivers seem to be pretty good about obeying crosswalks and allowing people to cross.  I really hope its something other than an Abuelos.

Cherry Street now needs a hotel.  I live very close and I hate that when family and friends visit they have to stay somewhere farther away (my home is small and they generally prefer hotels to my couch).

[dsjeffries]

Any visual for the site plan?  It sounds like a good deal.  Up to the sidewalk, office space included.  Parking is necessary because Cherry Street draws from a wide area, glad to see its in the back consistent with the rest of the neighborhood.  I jog through Cherry Street quite often and it gets busy with cars and can be difficult to cross sometimes, but drivers seem to be pretty good about obeying crosswalks and allowing people to cross.  I really hope its something other than an Abuelos.

Cherry Street now needs a hotel.  I live very close and I hate that when family and friends visit they have to stay somewhere farther away (my home is small and they generally prefer hotels to my couch).

http://www.tmapc.org/tmapc/PUD-811.pdf