Chandler Park Backcountry

[RecycleMichael]

I don't disagree with your concept Aquaman (by the way, I am a big fan of your comics and movies).

But now that I work in real estate property assessment, many property owners have a highly inflated value of their land. They often refuse to accept reasonable offers just knowing that some incredible thing will happen across the road and a guy with a suitcase full of money will approach them.

I have a guy right now with land on Grand Lake that thinks his land is worth $9 million dollars an acre.

This conversation was about acquiring land for public use and could possibly even be purchased with public dollars. The property is currently on the tax rolls for tens of dollars and he wants millions of dollars for it. So when does the public get in? We the public only get taxes in very small amounts of money because the land is valued as almost worthless and now the public might be asked to buy it because it is so valuable.

I am not just picking on this guy. He is just an example of a problem.

[AquaMan]

Yeah, I've seen many of those cases when I was selling real estate. Frustrating. The property at 21st and Boulder behind the law offices had a nice two story home on it that had some history. It was also the offices of the first female chiropractor in the state. So, of course when she passed, the heirs thought they had a mansion and a gold mine. Never sold. 30 years later its an empty lot.

But, note, I made clear that there are different valuations for different reasons. Banks have their reasons, governments have theirs. Its always a shock when the owners realize the gold mine is feldspar and the government is their only buyer!

[SXSW]

TW article about the Park Dept. trying to raise $18 million for Chandler Park renovations, but only $4 million is appropriated from the V2025 renewal.  Good to see more investment is planned for this park, hopefully that combined with the interest (and crowds) at Turkey Mountain will raise awareness of the need for additional "urban wilderness" at Chandler.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/chandler-park-s-full-potential-awaits-but-more-funds-needed/article_2585c42f-619b-562c-a2a2-3dbb4c45bd4f.html

[TeeDub]

Whine about money, but tear out perfectly good WPA/CCC era structures and replace them with ugly open pavilions.

Then they close off the whole bottom section? 

Whoever is in charge has some strange priorities.

[Conan71]

Whine about money, but tear out perfectly good WPA/CCC era structures and replace them with ugly open pavilions.

Then they close off the whole bottom section? 

Whoever is in charge has some strange priorities.

I thought WPA as well, but according to the county parks manager those structures all date to the 1960's or 1970's not the 1930's.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Here is the 1967 USGS aerial of that section of Tulsa with Chandler park towards the lower left corner. If you download the PDF you can enlarge it more than a standard PDF viewer. The lower level of the park is still under construction in 1967, the eastern most shelter on the lower level is being built, and the western end of the lower level has not been completed.

http://cdm15020.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p16063coll3/id/27/filename/28.pdf

[TeeDub]

I don't know that I would have believed you, but the aerial makes it hard to argue.   Apparently whoever built it, sure stayed true to that old WPA/CCC format.

I still don't understand closing off half a park (or selling parkland.)   That being said, I did donate after we drove through the Christmas lights up there, and I would rather see my taxes go to that than to almost anything else.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

As Conan pointed out a lot of the parks in Tulsa were built in the 60's, parks like Mohawk, Chandler, Reed, Whiteside, O'Brien, LaFortune, Zigler and some others that I can't think of right now.

Just to add, this is where I got the aerial from, and most of Tulsa in 1967 is available from this site. It's really interesting to see how Tulsa has changed in the last 50 years.

http://www.batesline.com/archives/2014/03/north-of-downtown-tulsa-1967.html

[cannon_fodder]

Turkey Mountain is overused. The lots are crowded, the common trails are crowded, erosion is a problem, and the facilities are inadequate for the crowds.  Without major changes and a significant investment in trail maintenance, it will continue to decline.  This from someone who loves Turkey Mountain.

Chandler Park could help alleviate some of the pressure.  Its clear people want hiking, mountain biking, and horse trails (the number of horse riders at Turkey has dropped as popularity has increased).  As far as public facilities are concerned, this is a cheap investment.  I hope they do this right.

[SXSW]

Turkey Mountain is overused. The lots are crowded, the common trails are crowded, erosion is a problem, and the facilities are inadequate for the crowds.  Without major changes and a significant investment in trail maintenance, it will continue to decline.  This from someone who loves Turkey Mountain.

Chandler Park could help alleviate some of the pressure.  Its clear people want hiking, mountain biking, and horse trails (the number of horse riders at Turkey has dropped as popularity has increased).  As far as public facilities are concerned, this is a cheap investment.  I hope they do this right.

Turkey Mountain will always be popular because of its location, easily accessible from most parts of the city.  Chandler could be an alternate though for people looking for more solitude and more miles of trails, and an overall different experience especially if they open up the "backcountry" to the west which is like adding 3 Turkey Mountain's if you include all of the land between Avery, Chandler, Hwy 97 and 41st.  It's a huge area with a similar topography to Turkey Mountain but with more cliffs, a larger canyon/gulch in the center and dense forest.

And once the Gilcrease Expressway opens to the east it will be more easily accessible with an exit/onramp at 21st St less than a mile from Chandler's main entrance and another at 41st St which could be an secondary access point for the backcountry areas by TCC-West.

[Conan71]

Turkey Mountain is overused. The lots are crowded, the common trails are crowded, erosion is a problem, and the facilities are inadequate for the crowds.  Without major changes and a significant investment in trail maintenance, it will continue to decline.  This from someone who loves Turkey Mountain.

Chandler Park could help alleviate some of the pressure.  Its clear people want hiking, mountain biking, and horse trails (the number of horse riders at Turkey has dropped as popularity has increased).  As far as public facilities are concerned, this is a cheap investment.  I hope they do this right.

TUWC (which you still need to get involved with...ahem) is working with RPA to prioritize trail repairs.

This is precisely why more trail users need to get involved with TUWC, there are plenty of opportunities to provide input on needed repairs as well as providing a source of volunteer labor to make those repairs as they happen.  RPA simply does not have the manpower nor the budget to hire the manpower to keep up with trail maintenance at Turkey Mountain. 

It's still anyone's guess what KFF will end up wanting to do at Turkey Mountain as far as a master plan goes once their focus shifts from the Gathering Place, but TUWC has been assured they will have a seat at the table when that happens.

[cannon_fodder]

My comment wasn't meant as a criticism to RPA, TUWC, or any other groups that do trail work at Turkey. I've been there and tried to keep up with them, they work their butts off.  But the total investment in Turkey past the main landing and upper parking lot is one sign at the back of power line, 2 other emergency location signs, and sporadic spray paint on trees. Trail maintenance from RPA is what, 2 days a year with mostly volunteers and equipment/fill available at one day every other year? 

Small groups of people with limited budgets can't keep up with the popularity growth of the last 5 years.   I used to go out there with my dog off the leash all the time, because once ~100 yards past the parking lot you didn't run into many people.  If I did, I could easily heel my dog and grab a collar.  Now - you see someone every 2 minutes, so you can't let a dog off a leash without being a pest to other people or risking it running in front of a cyclist (and, of course, it has always been against the rules.  With more people there *should* come more enforcement). There used to be one parking lot and it was rarely full.  There are not meant as a complaints, as everyone has a right to use our parks, just indicators usage is up.

Trails are no different than roads.  They wear out with more use. Many of the trails are 20+ years old and haven't had significant maintenance because its too hard to get a wheel borrow of fill in there.  The crews do the best they can, but compared to many other trails I've hiked/ridden the overuse/erosion issues at Turkey are substantial.

Also, Turkey doesn't provide very good beginner mountain biking or well marked trails for hikers.  Hell, I'm not sure I could really follow the yellow trail from the lower parking lot and stay on the marked trail for the entire loop.  Go to any other than yellow trail and I'm not sure you have a chance of following the right trail for an entire loop.  For mountain biking, the fact that the trails are too challenging for most riders is evidenced by the sprawl of certain sections of trails.   When the trail keeps getting wider and wider, or keeps creeping to other paths, it's a sign that most riders are trying to avoid the designated line. They shouldn't do that - but we can glean useful information from it anyway. If other convenient trails were available, riders looking for the easier line can head there (or if a trail guide at Turkey showed easier/difficult segments).

Those things don't discourage me from heading out there.  I know the trails or I can just head south and figure I'll find a parking lot.  I can walk my bike if a trail is too difficult.  BUT - if we are trying to encourage people to get our more and go into outdoor recreation, these are concerns.  Which is a paradox since my other complaint is that they are overused.  I think it's a testament to how much people in Tulsa want to get out and do things in urban wilderness areas. 

Which is why providing more places to do so is a great idea!


(Again, I'm not trying to be critical of people who do more than I do. If they had the resources of state parks [or the resources state parks used to have] or of Bentonville or other places that have invested... they'd continue to outperform with the resources they are granted)