Fallins signs ban for minimum wage increases by cities

[heironymouspasparagus]

The job market is certainly not what it was 30 years ago, it's not even what it was 10 years ago, and the shift to low wage transient employment was already well underway by then. There's a reason why underemployment is still near an all time high. There simply aren't enough middle wage jobs to go around, even for those with college degrees.

I recently had the opportunity to discuss a job situation and there were a couple things that have dramatically changed in the engineering level of job - just in the last 6 or 7 years.  First, no "flex time" was allowed by the company....since 1975 I have only been in companies that had some version of flex time.  The HR lady insisted that this was how "everyone does it now".  Ok...just none of the tiny to behemoth companies I have ever been with....

Second was the way vacation - personal time off - is done.  There has always been defined vacation at all the other companies.  Then at the "professional" level of engineer (and above) jobs, there is no absolutely defined "sick leave", but an umbrella of short term and long term disability - with varying methods of buying that insurance - some the company paid, some I paid.  Both these were lumped together here as PTO....have some friends that have encountered and live under that system, so it seems to be proliferating, and they seem ok with it...I just haven't been in one yet.

Both are "take backs" from the employee.

[TheArtist]

As I have said before - there is no job in this country that is not worth $10 an hour - or more.  If a company feels some effort is worth less, they should not be doing it - or use their 'management brain/training' (isn't management the highly skilled, highly talented force worth 500 times the lowest paid employee??)  to figure out a more efficient/effective/productive way of doing it.

The assumption from that statement assumes that companies hiring people are larger ones.  Also, I will be flat out honest with you, the company I just started, year and a half in from when we opened our doors, 2 years since we started working on opening the shop, has not made a dime yet, and sure as heck hasn't "paid management" squat lol.  Quite the opposite, it's been my day job that has been shunting money into the business to keep it growing.  Our goal is to break even by the end of this year and projections show that we will do that, and surprisingly actually may make some money.  But its a lot of work and nothings certain.  I would love to pay my employees more money, but I have to make sure first that the business can grow enough to survive with the expenses we now have. I tell my employees all the time how much I value them and hopefully if things keep improving that in time we can pay them more, though they don't seem to mind for they know what the deal is and both of them could likely get higher paying jobs elsewhere but of course those jobs may not be as convenient to them (hours or location wise) or would be higher stress at a time when they don't want that (one is going to college for instance and another has a young child and a husband working through med school).  And I have actually already given raises, though the business has not even broken even yet lol. Sure I could pay them even more, but I think all of us would rather we actually get to having a more successful business first and not have all our jobs lost if the business fails lol. I also try to give them every benefit I can, very flexible on whatever hours or days they may need off I will rearrange my schedule to be here and work that time myself. If they needed or want more time here and there to make some extra money I would try to do whatever I could do there too and anything they want in the shop they can have at wholesale.  And even at the wages I am paying now I still get people coming in wanting work but I just can't afford to hire anyone else right now, even though there is plenty of work I could use done.  Hopefully in time I will be able to pay more and hire more.    
 Now, could I have been paying more if I "had to" from the beginning?  Perhaps, we would honestly have to look at the numbers.  But one thing is for certain, the added stress and the risk to myself and the business would be greater especially in these early stages.  I am often here late into the night working and days off, doing ogles of not fun paperwork,cleaning, painting, etc. Been about two years now since we decided to open the shop and pouring our blood and toil into it, without making a dime, and no promise to ever actually make one. Employees get paid, no not much, but it's more than I am making lol.  Actually if things got tough, the employees would get fired and I would be there working the shop during the day.  Would make about as much taking their wages for myself as I do some years with my other job lol.  
 Again, my hope is that the business will continue to grow and do better so that someday the money and time I have invested into it will pay off.  Keep looking at my partners investment returns and ya can't help but have your heart sink a bit and think "holy crap if I had taken all the money I have already put into the shop and put it into that investment portfolio I would be a LOT better off lol".  This little venture could collapse in tears, or it could be one more steppingstone to having my dreams coming true.  But just want to give you some perspective of what its like down here in the trenches when your the little business, not having some big business loan to cushion you, losing money in the beginning as most do the first year, just starting out and trying to cross the threshold to success. Every cost savings helps make those initial losses less severe and adds to your chances of actually being able to make it, to being able to get to the point of hiring more people and pay people more too, and heck, maybe someday after all these years of work making some money myself! Wow, just thought of how great it would be if I were making minimum wage all the hours all these years I have been here making nothing lol.

 

[AquaMan]

Admirable. I've been there as well. But you have to value labor as equally important to capital (whether you as the owner are labor or you hire it out). When you undervalue your labor you shortchange yourself. Especially important in down in the trenches owners like yourselves. It sounds like you understand that. When people start espousing politically popular slogans about minimum wages being job killers, it is less than helpful and not based on factual history.

Take for instance your necessary capital expenditures for rent/utilities/product purchases otherwise known as overhead and capital goods. You wouldn't just not pay for them because you aren't profitable yet. You have to do the same with your labor. It is a cost of doing business and you must plan for it up front. For you, it is payment up front til your dreams are accomplished. A gamble that will pay off handsomely if you succeed.

Its this simple. It takes oxygen, fuel and spark to make an engine run. Without any one of these or the wrong timing and combination of these ingredients.....the engine fails to run (make a profit). You wouldn't consider eliminating the spark just to save some money.

It takes capital, labor and product expertise to make a business work and you must account for these, fund them and nurture them before you even open the doors. The wrong timing or combination means you fail to profit.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The assumption from that statement assumes that companies hiring people are larger ones.  Also, I will be flat out honest with you, the company I just started, year and a half in from when we opened our doors, 2 years since we started working on opening the shop, has not made a dime yet, and sure as heck hasn't "paid management" squat lol.  Quite the opposite, it's been my day job that has been shunting money into the business to keep it growing.  

 Again, my hope is that the business will continue to grow and do better so that someday the money and time I have invested into it will pay off.  Keep looking at my partners investment returns and ya can't help but have your heart sink a bit and think "holy crap if I had taken all the money I have already put into the shop and put it into that investment portfolio I would be a LOT better off lol".  This little venture could collapse in tears, or it could be one more steppingstone to having my dreams coming true.  But just want to give you some perspective of what its like down here in the trenches when your the little business, not having some big business loan to cushion you, losing money in the beginning as most do the first year, just starting out and trying to cross the threshold to success. Every cost savings helps make those initial losses less severe and adds to your chances of actually being able to make it, to being able to get to the point of hiring more people and pay people more too, and heck, maybe someday after all these years of work making some money myself! Wow, just thought of how great it would be if I were making minimum wage all the hours all these years I have been here making nothing lol.

My comments are definitely slanted more toward established business', but also apply to smaller and startups to a degree.  I have been exactly where you are twice and have been going down the road a third time.  The first made excellent margins, just not enough overall total numbers.  The second was a spectacular fireball of a failure with a lot of money going out and zip come in.  Third one is doing well, and since it is "part time" - also have the 'day job' - it is very healthy and doing well for where it is.  I am still a ways away from quitting and switching over....gonna get some more practice and slowly build it up.  I have talked about the occasional help I get before and since I have limited losses (some very modest rent and utilities) I have the luxury of not worrying about some of the things I have dealt with in the past, and you are facing now.  Good place to be, as long as it continues.

My overall compensation for all these events probably amounts to about 3 cents an hour - with the 1st being the only one that had a decent hourly rate.  Only one has been anything at all like retail, but they have all required a lot of sales.... you are good at that public interface with the customer - have been in a few times and visited - much better than I am at that kind of customer interaction.  I wish you and your employees well, and hope all of you get to retire rich very soon!!  Will try to get in this weekend to see if there is something I need.  Am still enjoying the watches!!  Get interesting reactions.  I still like that one big painting you have on the wall...Skyport...guess it's still there, since haven't been in for a couple months.... at the very least, I gotta get a print of that!!

[Conan71]

As I have said before - there is no job in this country that is not worth $10 an hour - or more.  If a company feels some effort is worth less, they should not be doing it - or use their 'management brain/training' (isn't management the highly skilled, highly talented force worth 500 times the lowest paid employee??)  to figure out a more efficient/effective/productive way of doing it.

$10 seems a bit arbitrary.  Why not $15 an hour - or more?  Why not $20 or $25 since the money is raining down like manna from heaven?

This is a free market economy.  There is nothing to force anyone to take a job at a given wage.  Sure there are some people who are desperate and will take what they can get to keep food in their stomach.  If they take a job at minimum wage, show a track record of reliability, and good work ethic, they won't make minimum wage for long.  One of my old sailing friends came from a very poor family.  He started out as a dishwasher at Waffle House for minimum wage in his teens.  He now owns multiple Waffle House locations.  It's not overly common, but it's not unheard of for people who started out on the bottom becoming franchisees of national brands.

If someone feels a sub-$10 wage is beneath what they believe the job should pay, they are free not to take the job.  Employers would figure out the work they want done demands a higher wage if no one is willing to accept the position(s) for their stated wage and would have to raise the wage to get someone to do the work.  This is what happens in markets with essentially full work forces like parts of North Dakota where the service jobs are in high demand due to the oil boom.  Companies compete for what is available in the local labor pool.  If that pool is really shallow, they will offer more for a starting wage.

[TheArtist]

Admirable. I've been there as well. But you have to value labor as equally important to capital (whether you as the owner are labor or you hire it out). When you undervalue your labor you shortchange yourself. Especially important in down in the trenches owners like yourselves. It sounds like you understand that. When people start espousing politically popular slogans about minimum wages being job killers, it is less than helpful and not based on factual history.

Take for instance your necessary capital expenditures for rent/utilities/product purchases otherwise known as overhead and capital goods. You wouldn't just not pay for them because you aren't profitable yet. You have to do the same with your labor. It is a cost of doing business and you must plan for it up front. For you, it is payment up front til your dreams are accomplished. A gamble that will pay off handsomely if you succeed.

Its this simple. It takes oxygen, fuel and spark to make an engine run. Without any one of these or the wrong timing and combination of these ingredients.....the engine fails to run (make a profit). You wouldn't consider eliminating the spark just to save some money.

It takes capital, labor and product expertise to make a business work and you must account for these, fund them and nurture them before you even open the doors. The wrong timing or combination means you fail to profit.

 Indeed I value my employees very much.  I would hate to lose any of them and hope that we can ramp up our business so that I can pay them more to entice them to stay and grow with the business.  But I think my concern is that "just starting out" interface for small businesses like myself.  

       "  Take for instance your necessary capital expenditures for rent/utilities/product purchases otherwise known as overhead and capital goods. You wouldn't just not pay for them because you aren't profitable yet.  "

This is partly true, but partly not true as well.  We were only able to do this because the building owner gave us a generous "staggered lease" agreement.  Starting with really low monthly rents and the rents then increasing with time.  If we would have had to pay full rent from the beginning, no way I could have done this.  We are not appreciating or "valuing" our location/shop space any less because we are able to pay less in the beginning any more than our labor when we can only pay so much at first and will pay more in time.  We did much of the build out work ourselves and I brought furniture from my house, including the dining room table lol, to use as merchandise displays. Started with the bare minimum of lighting, the electrician kept wanting to add more and also more plug-ins but we couldn't afford it at first so did without, am still adding lighting lol.
  Another example is just this month we finally got our first real sign.  For the last year or so all we had was a ratty little plastic banner draped above the entrance.  That sign cost me more than all the inventory I could afford in the beginning. Also have just starting some advertising, perhaps you have hear our ads for DECOPOLIS on NPR?  Essentially we are finally about where many a "normal" business would be when they open lol.  We started bare minimum, (Without much product at first for we could not afford much and wasn't no bank gonna loan us any lol, so yes, did without and worked our way up to being able to buy more as time went on) started dirt cheap and have reinvested every dime the business makes, back into the business.  So indeed, sometimes when starting out as small fry you do manage to do without, did without help for a while and only brought them in when we could afford to and hope to pay them more, and hire more as time goes on.    

   

[Cats Cats Cats]

 Indeed I value my employees very much.  I would hate to lose any of them and hope that we can ramp up our business so that I can pay them more to entice them to stay and grow with the business.  But I think my concern is that "just starting out" interface for small businesses like myself.  

       "  Take for instance your necessary capital expenditures for rent/utilities/product purchases otherwise known as overhead and capital goods. You wouldn't just not pay for them because you aren't profitable yet.  "

This is partly true, but partly not true as well.  We were only able to do this because the building owner gave us a generous "staggered lease" agreement.  Starting with really low monthly rents and the rents then increasing with time.  If we would have had to pay full rent from the beginning, no way I could have done this.  We are not appreciating or "valuing" our location/shop space any less because we are able to pay less in the beginning any more than our labor when we can only pay so much at first and will pay more in time.  We did much of the build out work ourselves and I brought furniture from my house, including the dining room table lol, to use as merchandise displays. Started with the bare minimum of lighting, the electrician kept wanting to add more and also more plug-ins but we couldn't afford it at first so did without, am still adding lighting lol.
  Another example is just this month we finally got our first real sign.  For the last year or so all we had was a ratty little plastic banner draped above the entrance.  That sign cost me more than all the inventory I could afford in the beginning. Also have just starting some advertising, perhaps you have hear our ads for DECOPOLIS on NPR?  Essentially we are finally about where many a "normal" business would be when they open lol.  We started bare minimum, (Without much product at first for we could not afford much and wasn't no bank gonna loan us any lol, so yes, did without and worked our way up to being able to buy more as time went on) started dirt cheap and have reinvested every dime the business makes, back into the business.  So indeed, sometimes when starting out as small fry you do manage to do without, did without help for a while and only brought them in when we could afford to and hope to pay them more, and hire more as time goes on.    
   

You are doing all that you can do and more than most.

[heironymouspasparagus]

$10 seems a bit arbitrary.  Why not $15 an hour - or more?  Why not $20 or $25 since the money is raining down like manna from heaven?

Because that is the actual minimum wage from 1968, adjusted for inflation.  We should be AT LEAST as good as 1968.  And that inflation adjusted number doesn't even take into the massive increases of productivity - averaging 2 to 3% per year - that the economy has enjoyed!  Has nothing to do with manna raining from heaven and you already know that.  

If you want to play that game, then yes, there should actually probably be an increase above and beyond the inflation adjusted rate just to account for that productivity.  Really wanna go there??

And since we got the can of worms open - then how about discussing CEO pay and the massive increases there - ALL subsidized by those teeming millions who DO NOT enjoy the benefits of the vast majority of their compensation being considered long term capital gains, thereby evading a much bigger tax bill.  And yes, the word is evasion - not avoidance.  Just because they can afford to buy their congressmen to pass a certain law....

And if a CEO is worth a real increase in pay of 200 to 330 times over that same time span, why would the people actually doing the work not be also worth those type of increases??  That would put the minimum wage in the range of several hundred dollars per hour, wouldn't it...?   But to the Republicontins, that would be the problem.  (I thought you were recovering??)

[Cats Cats Cats]

A lot of the people in Oklahoma making lower wages get things like the earned income tax credit, food stamps, sooner care, etc.  So pay people $7.25 an hour and then the tax payers make up the rest.  So maybe instead of $10 we should choose a wage that doesn't require the state to subsidize wages.  But that would kill things like William's business if he had to pay 50% more an hour.

[heironymouspasparagus]

A lot of the people in Oklahoma making lower wages get things like the earned income tax credit, food stamps, sooner care, etc.  So pay people $7.25 an hour and then the tax payers make up the rest.  So maybe instead of $10 we should choose a wage that doesn't require the state to subsidize wages.  But that would kill things like William's business if he had to pay 50% more an hour.

What is means is all of us in the middle get to subsidize the lowest incomes as well as the highest incomes.