Solar and Wind Power Fees for Oklahomans

[sgrizzle]

As for the wind not blowing...well, look at that map and see the wide distribution of mills.  If the ones up north are still, the odds are VERY much that the ones down south will be turning.  It's an extremely widely distributed system.  Kind of like going from the north panhandle to Corpus or more south is on the order of El Paso to Houston -   +/- a few dozen miles.  And El Paso to Houston is further than from El Paso to Los Angeles...so the idea that the whole of Texas is gonna be still at the same time...well that's like expecting the entire west of CA, AZ, and NM to be still at the same time.  Probably not.

It's not widely distributed to try to keep something turning, it's widely distributed because those plants generate so little power that transmission losses are a huge factor. They are spending massive investments in infrastructure to try to get power from West Texas to places like Dallas because under existing wires you wouldn't have enough power left to charge a prius.

The power grid isn't just a couple of wires connected to a rechargeable battery. Maintaing the correct cycles, balancing all of the phases (there is more than just the two), and keeping enough available capacity to the right areas is a very complicated set of procedures requiring thousands of people working 24/7. It's not like pooling loose change to buy egg rolls at chills, you can't just throw a bunch of stuff out there and go "that should cover it"

[heironymouspasparagus]

It's not widely distributed to try to keep something turning, it's widely distributed because those plants generate so little power that transmission losses are a huge factor. They are spending massive investments in infrastructure to try to get power from West Texas to places like Dallas because under existing wires you wouldn't have enough power left to charge a prius.

The power grid isn't just a couple of wires connected to a rechargeable battery. Maintaing the correct cycles, balancing all of the phases (there is more than just the two), and keeping enough available capacity to the right areas is a very complicated set of procedures requiring thousands of people working 24/7. It's not like pooling loose change to buy egg rolls at chills, you can't just throw a bunch of stuff out there and go "that should cover it"

Wow!  Do you know anything about Texas power generation??  ERCOT says that wind 9.9% of total power on their grid in 2013 - up from 9.2% in 2012.  (ERCOT supplies about 85% of the power in TX)

March 2014 saw a record for wind power generation - 29% of the entire grid demand.  They are obviously "all in" with this wind power thing....I guess the benevolence of the institution overrides economic considerations after all.  They currently have over 11,000 MW of wind.  8,000 MW additional is in process.  That will take that 10% up to very close to 20% average supply from wind.  Closing in on Germany....well, maybe not yet, since Germany is going on 30%.  Gee, I wonder what they (ERCOT) knows that the RWRE doesn't want everyone else to know??  That wind power is viable and cost-competitive....?  I bet that's it.

March 27 - 3:18 am - wind providing 38% of the total grid demand.

26,700 MW MORE is under study.   What percentage is AEP/PSO at now??

http://www.ercot.com/news/press_releases/show/26611

[TeeDub]

Wind power is awesome, but sgrizzle is right, the transmission part is expensive and cumbersome to permit and build.

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059995041

[Conan71]

Clean energy at odds with the local ecology:

OSAGE COUNTY, Okla. - A wind company in Kansas wants Osage Nation landowners to put wind turbines on their land off Highway 169. FOX23 spoke with residents about their concern.

The Flint Hills spanning from Kansas to Oklahoma is the largest tallgrass prairie in the United States and just one of six remaining in the entire world. According to coalition members, that unique land will be compromised if Tradewinds Energy uses the land to house 68 wind turbines..

"It's going to demolish and demise the views Osage County is known for," said coalition member Penny Bradford.

According to Bradford, Tradewinds has an agreement with the state of Kansas to avoid the Flint Hill in its own state.

"But yet it's OK for them to come across the state line into Oklahoma and destroy ours and to me, that's unacceptable," Bradford said.

Many are now wondering how it got to this point.

"We have landowners that with their land use rights have reached agreements with energy companies," Bradford said.

FOX23 learned that the agreements aren't small. Some landowners earn up to one million dollars per year for the duration of the energy contract which is expect to span 20 years.

According to Bradford, six local landowners would reap those large benefits, but the energy produced from the turbines wouldn't benefit Green Country.

"All of the energy produced here from this construction site will be sold to St. Louis, Mo." Bradford said.

At the heart of the issue, it's a land and preservation battle.

"This is our home and Osage County is known for its beauty and we would like to keep it that way," Bradford said.

Bradford made it clear that the Osage Nation is not opposed to clean energy and wind turbines. They are just opposed to them being built at the suggested location.

Goes to show there is a yin and yang to any source of energy.

[nathanm]

Not really sure what big wind farms have to do with fees charged to distributed generation customers.

[AquaMan]

Okla is a donor state. Just one more example. We refuse to believe what we see because its filtered through politics and corporate kaleidoscopes.

Just drive up to Minnesota through Kansas, Missouri, Iowa and see how small communities are powered by wind. Then review these comments. Like mass public transportation, it is happening, it will continue to happen and just because we say it isn't feasible here, doesn't mean it isn't. It just means others will profit from our lack of vision.

[TeeDub]

There are several wind farms in Oklahoma, just none around Tulsa...   (For a reason.)  I wish that solar would hurry up and become economical so that I have a reason to put them on my house for the first big hail storm.

[AquaMan]

1 mph difference between Tulsa county and Osage where Tradewinds from Kansas is installing 68 windmills?

[Cats Cats Cats]

I never said or implied they were doing it one mill at a time....they are using farms like we do here.

As for the wind not blowing...well, look at that map and see the wide distribution of mills.  If the ones up north are still, the odds are VERY much that the ones down south will be turning.  It's an extremely widely distributed system.  Kind of like going from the north panhandle to Corpus or more south is on the order of El Paso to Houston -   +/- a few dozen miles.  And El Paso to Houston is further than from El Paso to Los Angeles...so the idea that the whole of Texas is gonna be still at the same time...well that's like expecting the entire west of CA, AZ, and NM to be still at the same time.  Probably not.

Why would the price ever decrease??  That sounds a little bit like the same mindset that the RWRE has been trying to get people to assume in relation to "energy independence" - where we produce all our oil/gas here.  The unspoken implication that they want you to think is that somehow that will also create lower or even stable prices for energy.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  (You don't believe that nonsense, do you??)

The big windmills have generators in them that do stabilize/synchronize 60Hz to the grid.  Distance does not affect frequency.  Otherwise they could NOT connect to the grid.  If anyone looks at the following link, move the cursor over different sections of the rotating windmill picture to see what is happening in each section.

http://energy.gov/eere/wind/how-does-wind-turbine-work

And for just a little bit of snarky... How is it that it is again?

This discussion was about homeowners putting up wind generation not companies making wind farms.
For the wind blowing % ERCOT plans for about 20% average wind. The coastal wind farms are even better.  Each generator is rated a little differently but they plan for about 20% total.  So if you have a 1000 MW wind farm they will plan for 200 MW.  That means that only 20% of a new wind farm offsets a new gas plant.

The big windmills use power electronics (frequency converter) to get the 60hz.  So the generators themselves aren't required to be sychronous with the rest of the grid the power electronics are. When there is a fault on the system the frequency changes.  When the fault is removed the system has to get back to 60 hz. Big motors/generators drive the frequency of the system and the further you are away the harder it is to make sure everything stay sychronized.  Wind farms will have to trip offline if the frequency doesn't recover fast enough after a fault. Basically wind farms far away are more likely to trip off during a fault because there isn't much to maintain the frequency.  As you replace more traditional generation it can reduce stability on the system during faults.  Which can create more problems for the wind farms as well.

[TeeDub]

1 mph difference between Tulsa county and Osage where Tradewinds from Kansas is installing 68 windmills?

Should have posted the 50m map?

[Cats Cats Cats]

Wind power is awesome, but sgrizzle is right, the transmission part is expensive and cumbersome to permit and build.

http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059995041

That 6.9 billion isn't done yet.  They need to expand it even more.

http://www.ercot.com/content/news/presentations/2014/Panhandle%20Renewable%20Energy%20Zone%20Study%20Report.pdf
Bonus stability charts.

[sgrizzle]

What percentage is AEP/PSO at now??

15%

But don't worry, waves your arms enough and eventually you'll be right.

[sgrizzle]

Not really sure what big wind farms have to do with fees charged to distributed generation customers.

Because the theory here is that by charging a small fee to people with solar panels or turbines at their home, that utilities hate all renewable energy sources and want to strike it down.

Or something..

[AquaMan]

Edison was right. Ac/dc is dangerous, complicated and will never work. We need to harness this new earthquake resource.

[Townsend]

Edison was right. Ac/dc is dangerous, complicated and will never work. We need to harness this new earthquake resource.

Guide to Harnessing Earthquake Energy

http://news.discovery.com/earth/how-to-harness-energy-from-earthquakes-111129.htm