Prayer Not Unconstitutional

[guido911]

Interesting ruling today from the Supremes.

This morning the Supreme Court held in Town of Greece v. Galloway, that the town's practice of beginning legislative sessions with prayers does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. It was a 5-4 decision, split along traditional right-left lines, though there is not a clear majority opinion.
Justice Kennedy wrote for the Court, joined by the Chief Justice and Justice Alito in full and Justices Scalia and Thomas in part.  Scalia and Thomas refused to join part Part II-B of Kennedy's opinion, which concluded that a "fact-intensive" inquiry of the specific practice at issue in this case did not unconstitutionally coerce individuals to engage in religious observance. Justice Alito wrote a concurring opinion, joined by Justice Scalia. Justice Thomas wrote an opinion concurring in part and concurring in the judgment, joined by Justice Scalia in part. On the other side, Justice Breyer wrote a dissenting opinion for himself, and Justice Kagan wrote a dissent joined by Justices Breyer, Ginsburg, and Sotomayor.  The opinions are here.
Justice Kennedy's decision appears to rest squarely on the Court's decision in Marsh v. Chambers, which upheld the state of Nebraska's practice of opening legislative sessions with a state-appointed chaplain.  Although the practice might appear to constitute an establishment of religion under the Lemon test, the Court in Marsh noted that such legislative prayers date back to the First Continental Congress and concluded that such a well-established tradition could not violate the Establishment Clause.   Thus unless the Court were willing to overturn Marsh, the only way to invalidate the prayer at issue here would be to conclude that it was more sectarian or more coercive.  Justice Kennedy's opinion for the Court concludes:
The town of Greece does not violate the First Amendment by opening its meetings with prayer that comports with our tradition and does not coerce participation by nonadherents.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/05/breaking-supreme-court-upholds-legislative-prayer-in-town-of-greece-v-galloway/

I am reading a lot about "tradition" from judicial opinions lately.

[nathanm]

This doesn't touch on the legal aspect, but is interesting as one person's opinion on a closely related subject:

http://www.wnd.com/2005/10/32839/

[Conan71]

Interesting ruling today from the Supremes.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Interesting ruling today from the Supremes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/05/breaking-supreme-court-upholds-legislative-prayer-in-town-of-greece-v-galloway/

I am reading a lot about "tradition" from judicial opinions lately.

Radical, reactionary, unelected judiciary creating law out of thin air.... destroying the Constitution!  Taking us away from the intent of the founding fathers!

[guido911]

Radical, reactionary, unelected judiciary creating law out of thin air.... destroying the Constitution!  Taking us away from the intent of the founding fathers!

Don't make me bust out the "pic" as to the source of that last post.   

[Hoss]

On the topic, I don't know how I missed this little nugget earlier this year:

Evidently, the former Chief Justice of the State of Alabama (I know, I know)...thinks the Constitution is great!.....if you're a Christian.

Some words of wisdom from this gem....

"Buddha didn't create us, Mohammed didn't create us, it was the God of the Holy Scriptures"

"They didn't bring the Koran over on the pilgrim ship,"

That last quote, is probably true.  But last I checked, wasn't this nation founded because of religious persecution?

http://annistonstar.com/view/full_story/25038433/article-HOT-BLAST---Let-s-get-real--over-Christians-only-Constitution--says-Roy-Moore

[heironymouspasparagus]

That last quote, is probably true.  But last I checked, wasn't this nation founded because of religious persecution?

Partially.  They came here to escape the persecution at home, AND to establish their own theocracy to perform THEIR form of religious persecution.

[custosnox]

The real key to this ruling, from my reading of the decision, lies in the fact that they have prayers from all religions. As long as they aren't refusing any particular religion from leading a prayer, they pass the constitutional test. It's similar to when Tulsa let an atheist lead the "prayer" for the council meeting not too long ago.

[cannon_fodder]

The real key to this ruling, from my reading of the decision, lies in the fact that they have prayers from all religions. As long as they aren't refusing any particular religion from leading a prayer, they pass the constitutional test. It's similar to when Tulsa let an atheist lead the "prayer" for the council meeting not too long ago.

+1.  Which I think is solid ground.

Where the challenge came in was when you have a small town like this, where the prayer was ALWAYS a particular kind of Christian prayer (one sect, I recall which one).  If a person in that small town was Muslim/Jewish or some unpopular religion, it would take a strong person to speak up.  It isn't that they COULDN'T, simply having the perception that the town has adopted Christianity as their religion can be a problem.

Interestingly, the religion in the majority on the Court had no problem with the Court.  Those of other religions dissented.

[heironymouspasparagus]

+1.  Which I think is solid ground.

Where the challenge came in was when you have a small town like this, where the prayer was ALWAYS a particular kind of Christian prayer (one sect, I recall which one).  If a person in that small town was Muslim/Jewish or some unpopular religion, it would take a strong person to speak up.  It isn't that they COULDN'T, simply having the perception that the town has adopted Christianity as their religion can be a problem.

Interestingly, the religion in the majority on the Court had no problem with the Court.  Those of other religions dissented.

That's a big reason why you see so much consistency in small town attitudes, reactions, etc.... a minority - religious or otherwise - isn't gonna say their real thoughts many times, if they plan to stay there.

[guido911]

Here we go...

http://theweek.com/article/index/261360/speedreads-florida-man-wants-to-open-town-council-meeting-with-satanist-prayer

Just doing this as a gag, he claims.

[Townsend]

Getting a tad silly now. 

Restaurant's 'Prayer Discount' Sparks Mix Of Praise, Anger

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/restaurants-prayer-discount-sparks-mix-praise-anger

When Jordan Smith got her tab after breakfast at Mary's Gourmet Diner in Winston-Salem, N.C., she was pleasantly surprised to find a 15 percent discount — for "praying in public."

Smith, on a business trip, tells HLN that she and her colleagues "prayed over our meal and the waitress came over at the end of the meal and said, 'Just so you know, we gave you a 15 percent discount for praying.' "

Smith then snapped a photo of her receipt, complete with a line item for "15% Praying in Public ($6.07)" and posted it to her Facebook page. Not surprisingly, it's gone viral.

Some wondered if it was just another social media hoax, but the diner's own Facebook page appears to confirm it's for real. Many responded like Arlene Wilson Focht, who wrote on the diner's page:

Dave Moore was among those who questioned whether the restaurant would give the same discount to people who offered public prayers that weren't of the Christian variety:

... Several pointed out that praying in public is frowned upon by the New Testament passage Matthew 6:5:

Others wondered aloud if the restaurant's practice amounts to discrimination. The Department of Justice says that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination based on religion in a public accommodation, such as a restaurant. What's not immediately clear is whether the diner's practice qualifies as discrimination.

We put in a call to the DOJ for clarification and will update this post if we hear back.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Getting a tad silly now. 

Restaurant's 'Prayer Discount' Sparks Mix Of Praise, Anger

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/restaurants-prayer-discount-sparks-mix-praise-anger

Kinda reminds me of a tattoo I saw quoting Leviticus 18:22....while obviously oblivious to Leviticus 19:28.....


Well, what can you expect from people who "pick and choose" their beliefs, morality, and behavior??!!