Iraq Reverts

[Gaspar]

This should have a thread.  Apparently many of Saddam's old generals have joined the Al Queada linked group ISIS as they methodically recapture Iraq and confiscate equipment and weaponry we supplied.  They are enchanting more resistance as they move towards Bagdad, but it is believed Bagdad will indeed fall unless there is international intervention.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/world/middleeast/iraq.html?hp&_r=1
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-12/iraq-seeks-to-check-advance-of-islamists-near-saddam-s-hometown.html

We never should have been there in the first place, once there, we never should have offered a time-table, and we never should have made our exit a political decision rather than a strategic one.

As the Taliban has warned us for over a decade "You have all the clocks, but we have all the time."  It seems that the Islamic extremists in Iraq were simply waiting the clock out.

[heironymouspasparagus]

What I have been saying would happen since 2003.



Somehow, "I told you so" just doesn't quite say it....


Another Viet Nam - we "declare victory" - "Mission Accomplished".  Leave the field.  Lose the war.

[rebound]

We never should have been there in the first place, once there, we never should have offered a time-table, and we never should have made our exit a political decision rather than a strategic one.

I agree wholeheartedly on the first point.  But "strategic" can cut both ways.  A true Victory, and all that entails, was never really an option for Iraq.  Sometimes you just have to leave.

[Gaspar]

Iran has deployed revolutionary guard forces without hesitation to help Iraq and have been successful in taking back most of Tikrit, and are considering pulling forces from Syria to combat the rebels. http://online.wsj.com/articles/iran-deploys-forces-to-fight-al-qaeda-inspired-militants-in-iraq-iranian-security-sources-1402592470



It seems all of the predictions made were spot on.  There is no reason why we shouldn't have been prepared for this.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/meast/iraq-predictions-revisited/

I'm willing to bet we recommit air power within 24 hours.

[swake]

Iran has deployed revolutionary guard forces without hesitation to help Iraq and have been successful in taking back most of Tikrit, and are considering pulling forces from Syria to combat the rebels. http://online.wsj.com/articles/iran-deploys-forces-to-fight-al-qaeda-inspired-militants-in-iraq-iranian-security-sources-1402592470



It seems all of the predictions made were spot on.  There is no reason why we shouldn't have been prepared for this.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/meast/iraq-predictions-revisited/

I'm willing to bet we recommit air power within 24 hours.

Prepared for what? Civil war was always going to be the outcome. Always. Bush screwed it all up and there was no other outcome. The only interesting piece is that the issues in Syria have merged with Iraq. This is in many ways is a outgrowth of a cold war between Saudi Arabia and Iran (Sunni v Shiite).

1. Baghdad is not going to fall. The areas that have been taken are Sunni, Baghdad is majority Shiite. The Army had been purged of Sunnis so they didn't fight defend Sunni areas. They will fight to save their own homes. Iraq remains majority Shiite. Or what was Iraq.
2. Most Sunnis in the taken areas felt already repressed by the Shiite government that then failed to protect them.
3. Iraq, left to Democracy, was always going vote for Shiite leaders that have the country come under Iran's sphere of influence.
4. We have no side in this, we back Baghdad and we are supporting a repressive regime backed by Iran, we back the rebels and we are supporting radical Islamists. Same issues we have had from the start in Syria.

The best outcome probably is a three (four?) state solution. A rump Shiite dominated Iraq, a new Sunni run country (hopefully not run by ISIS), Kurdistan and a rump majority Alawite and Christian Syria.

[guido911]

I knew it was Bush's fault.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I knew it was Bush's fault.

Then why have you been on the other side of history??

[swake]

I knew it was Bush's fault.

Absolutely.

Our aid, military and otherwise should go to the Kurds in both Iraq and Syria. Kurdistan is coming. We just have to figure out how to get Turkey on board with it.

[guido911]

Absolutely.

Our aid, military and otherwise should go to the Kurds in both Iraq and Syria. Kurdistan is coming. We just have to figure out how to get Turkey on board with it.

I'll call W and get him working on that for you; okay

[swake]

I'll call W and get him working on that for you; okay

No, he damaged this country quite enough. We don't need his "help". I don't think we could take it. Worst President of All Time.

[guido911]

No, he damaged this country quite enough. We don't need his "help". I don't think we could take it. Worst President of All Time.

Bwahahahahahaha.   Catching breath.   Bwahahahaha

[Red Arrow]

No, he damaged this country quite enough. We don't need his "help". I don't think we could take it. Worst President of All Time.

Truman: Yep, I was alive then but have no memory of him what-so-ever.

Eisenhower didn't really do that much except for the Interstate Highway system (which is enough for some to condemn him forever).  Sometimes not much is better that a bunch of not-so-good. I kind-of-sort-of remember him being President.

I was in Jr. High School when JFK was assassinated.  My dad said he had some good ideas but the wrong way to get there. I don't really have too much independent thought in regarding politics in his case.  His commitment to science and the space race was a good thing.  I remember the moon landing.  I was allowed to stop my menial labor (at nearly twice the minimum wage) to watch the TV coverage.

I will always remember LBJ's contribution to the Viet Nam situation, especially after he clobbered Goldwater for being a War Hawk.  (Goldwater was going to start a Nuclear War.) I  think we lost about 46,000 or so in that Police Action compared to 4000 or so in Iraq.  Civil Rights stuff was proper.  Great Society, not so much as it created a society dependent on Government for existence.  Have we really cured poverty?

Nixon kept me from getting killed in Viet Nam.  Enough said.

Ford: He probably did the right thing regarding Nixon. It kept us from becoming totally mired down in crap.  It didn't surprise me that he wasn't re-elected.  The country was ready for something different - anything different.  (Kind of like in 2008)

Jimmy Carter was a good ex-President.  Not so much a good President.  My CDs (then and shortly thereafter) did good unless you considered inflation. Remember double digit car loan and mortgage interest rates?

I know there are a lot of Reagan haters here but I did OK since I wasn't loaded up to my ears in debt that became non-deductable. Yep, my taxes went up but so did my salary as I went from beginning to experienced Engineer. 

Clinton was "blessed" with a Republican Congress which made his budget have a surplus in spite of his desires. He was a reasonable compromiser but otherwise not all that remarkable.  The Monica Lewinsky stuff was more about lying than fooling around.  He rode an economic bubble to the top. I almost voted for Algore just to let the Democrats take credit for the impending doom but couldn't make myself do it.

Knowing what I know now vs. what I knew in 2000 and 2004, I would still have voted for Bush II vs. Algore or Kerry.

Obama:  We will survive in spite of him.

If you go back in history, we have had some good Presidents and some not so good Presidents.  Bush will probably fall into the not so good arena but most likely not the "worst".

[Hoss]

Truman: Yep, I was alive then but have no memory of him what-so-ever.

Eisenhower didn't really do that much except for the Interstate Highway system (which is enough for some to condemn him forever).  Sometimes not much is better that a bunch of not-so-good. I kind-of-sort-of remember him being President.

I was in Jr. High School when JFK was assassinated.  My dad said he had some good ideas but the wrong way to get there. I don't really have too much independent thought in regarding politics in his case.  His commitment to science and the space race was a good thing.  I remember the moon landing.  I was allowed to stop my menial labor (at nearly twice the minimum wage) to watch the TV coverage.

I will always remember LBJ's contribution to the Viet Nam situation, especially after he clobbered Goldwater for being a War Hawk.  (Goldwater was going to start a Nuclear War.) I  think we lost about 46,000 or so in that Police Action compared to 4000 or so in Iraq.  Civil Rights stuff was proper.  Great Society, not so much as it created a society dependent on Government for existence.  Have we really cured poverty?

Nixon kept me from getting killed in Viet Nam.  Enough said.

Ford: He probably did the right thing regarding Nixon. It kept us from becoming totally mired down in crap.  It didn't surprise me that he wasn't re-elected.  The country was ready for something different - anything different.  (Kind of like in 2008)

Jimmy Carter was a good ex-President.  Not so much a good President.  My CDs (then and shortly thereafter) did good unless you considered inflation. Remember double digit car loan and mortgage interest rates?

I know there are a lot of Reagan haters here but I did OK since I wasn't loaded up to my ears in debt that became non-deductable. Yep, my taxes went up but so did my salary as I went from beginning to experienced Engineer.  

Clinton was "blessed" with a Republican Congress which made his budget have a surplus in spite of his desires. He was a reasonable compromiser but otherwise not all that remarkable.  The Monica Lewinsky stuff was more about lying than fooling around.  He rode an economic bubble to the top. I almost voted for Algore just to let the Democrats take credit for the impending doom but couldn't make myself do it.

Knowing what I know now vs. what I knew in 2000 and 2004, I would still have voted for Bush II vs. Algore or Kerry.

Obama:  We will survive in spite of him.

If you go back in history, we have had some good Presidents and some not so good Presidents.  Bush will probably fall into the not so good arena but most likely not the "worst".

A little off-topic but Eisenhower was given credit for the interstate highway system, however he didn't design it and implement it.  The only reason he gets the credit is because he was the sitting President to sign the bill into action and he championed its passage.  It actually got started way back in the '20s with the Phipps Act, and actually much before that in 1916 with the Federal Aid Road Act.  I've been reading the book "The Big Roads" and it's fascinating.  They tell the stories of the engineers that got the roads started and how they did it.  With your background RA I think you'd enjoy it.

[Red Arrow]

A little off-topic but Eisenhower was given credit for the interstate highway system, however he didn't design it and implement it.  The only reason he gets the credit is because he was the sitting President to sign the bill into action and he championed its passage.  It actually got started way back in the '20s with the Phipps Act, and actually much before that in 1916 with the Federal Aid Road Act.  I've been reading the book "The Big Roads" and it's fascinating.  They tell the stories of the engineers that got the roads started and how they did it.  With your background RA I think you'd enjoy it.

I probably would.  The PA TPK was an early player.  There were also some other "modern" roads in the area.  There were a few "high speed" roads in NJ from the Phila area to the Jersey Shore resorts.  I think the White Horse or Black Horse (?) Pike was 70 MPH when the next highest thing was the PA TPK at 65.  Most rural roads in PA were 50 or 55 MPH max forever.  Many weren't suitable for anything over about 40 or 45 MPH.  They literally made the road where the cows walked. Around trees, you bet.  Good sports car country but not so good for getting places.

[swake]

Truman: Yep, I was alive then but have no memory of him what-so-ever.

Eisenhower didn't really do that much except for the Interstate Highway system (which is enough for some to condemn him forever).  Sometimes not much is better that a bunch of not-so-good. I kind-of-sort-of remember him being President.

I was in Jr. High School when JFK was assassinated.  My dad said he had some good ideas but the wrong way to get there. I don't really have too much independent thought in regarding politics in his case.  His commitment to science and the space race was a good thing.  I remember the moon landing.  I was allowed to stop my menial labor (at nearly twice the minimum wage) to watch the TV coverage.

I will always remember LBJ's contribution to the Viet Nam situation, especially after he clobbered Goldwater for being a War Hawk.  (Goldwater was going to start a Nuclear War.) I  think we lost about 46,000 or so in that Police Action compared to 4000 or so in Iraq.  Civil Rights stuff was proper.  Great Society, not so much as it created a society dependent on Government for existence.  Have we really cured poverty?

Nixon kept me from getting killed in Viet Nam.  Enough said.

Ford: He probably did the right thing regarding Nixon. It kept us from becoming totally mired down in crap.  It didn't surprise me that he wasn't re-elected.  The country was ready for something different - anything different.  (Kind of like in 2008)

Jimmy Carter was a good ex-President.  Not so much a good President.  My CDs (then and shortly thereafter) did good unless you considered inflation. Remember double digit car loan and mortgage interest rates?

I know there are a lot of Reagan haters here but I did OK since I wasn't loaded up to my ears in debt that became non-deductable. Yep, my taxes went up but so did my salary as I went from beginning to experienced Engineer. 

Clinton was "blessed" with a Republican Congress which made his budget have a surplus in spite of his desires. He was a reasonable compromiser but otherwise not all that remarkable.  The Monica Lewinsky stuff was more about lying than fooling around.  He rode an economic bubble to the top. I almost voted for Algore just to let the Democrats take credit for the impending doom but couldn't make myself do it.

Knowing what I know now vs. what I knew in 2000 and 2004, I would still have voted for Bush II vs. Algore or Kerry.

Obama:  We will survive in spite of him.

If you go back in history, we have had some good Presidents and some not so good Presidents.  Bush will probably fall into the not so good arena but most likely not the "worst".

Worst ever. He both pointlessly invaded Iraq and bungled the war in Afghanistan and he also drove the country right into the Great Recession. That's far from his full list of stupidity and would be very hard to beat. You add in The Patriot Act, Bush's "Not that concerned about Bin Laden", his massively unbalancing the budget, the Katrina response and "Mission Accomplished" and he has no peer.