Th Politics of Groceries: Gateway closed today 7/29/2014

[Conan71]

You notice the story talks about the area's councilman taking steps to get something done?

"Paging Jack Henderson, Paging Jack Henderson..."

Until north Tulsa will elect someone with a different paradigm than "South Tulsa is holding us down" they are going to be stuck with limited vision for their district.  Somebody younger with a more dynamic view of what can be instead of how they are being shafted is what District 1 needs.  Sorry, I'm just not a Henderson fan.

I was thinking about this issue last night and what kind of unconventional ideas would get a source of good staple food products to the area of Pine & Peoria.  Some ideas were farmers markets several days per week(granted the prices lot of producers charge for the produce at Cherry St. and other places would put a strain on budgets).  I also thought about a food pantry or neighborhood grocery subsidized and run by some of the larger churches in the area as an outreach mission or even as a cooperative effort with the Community Food Bank which is only about five or six blocks away from the former Gateway Market.  See if the landlord would split up the existing space to make it much more manageable and the rent more realistic for a venture like this.

I believe it was First Presbyterian which tried this concept on a small scale near the projects between Jackson and SW Blvd.  Not sure if it's still there or not.  IIRC, they were also presenting cooking and nutrition classes to show how easy it is to work with whole ingredients instead of relying on boxed goods for people's diets.

There has to be a way for the community to come together and make this a reality.  All it takes is an idea and the right people to make it happen.  Any other thoughts?

[TheArtist]

You will also notice, despite the parking lot across the street, that the development is pedestrian/transit friendly, which includes being mixed use with grocery store and services and other things all easily reachable.

The area in Tulsa has some of the lowest car ownership in the city and most need of being able to use transportation.  But the recent new developments including the grocery store, strip mall, health services etc. have been spread out and made difficult to access by those who use transit and are then in the area left either trekking blocks to other destinations in a pedestrian unfriendly environment, or left waiting again for transit to take them to the next destination, or a friend waiting on them to finish one errand then drive them to the next.  

People who need to use transit or take a taxi, etc. to get to a destination really need to be able to do more than just one thing when they get there.  It would be so much easier for people to say get off the bus and conveniently walk to multiple things like, a grocery store, post office, bank, hair salon, health/community service, childcare, clothing store, etc.  Than have to find ways to schedule to go to each one of them separately.  All of those things are in the area, but are not easy to get to from each other, and most of those things are new, thus having had the opportunity to be built properly, and many of them pushed for by and had assistance from the city and community, with apparently no thought or concern for how people were going to get to them and use them.  The city approved and encouraged spread out, suburban auto centric style developments, in an area that I believe the new comprehensive plan, and common sense, says would be better served with a more urban, main street style development.

 Was listening to someone who worked at a clinic in another city and they mentioned how they had MUCH higher compliance rates for treatments, and showing up for appointments when they switched to a program where they had all the doctors in one place at the same building doing, diabetes testing, nutritional lessons and examples, eye exams, etc. all in the same day.  Rather than people making an appointment do do one thing one day and trying to find transport to that appointment, then the other service another day, and so on, the ability to do more with one trip made it so much easier for them and thus again they were far more likely to avail themselves of the services.  Imagine if they could have done even more.  Imagine if the new Morton Healthcare clinic (I think that's the new one over by there) and the Grocery Store, the bank, the new strip mall, etc. were all right on that same corner, up to the sidewalk, parking behind, in a beautiful, pedestrian friendly environment.  One stop, one shop, jobs, services, restaurants, etc. place.  Not to mention creating an attractive Brookside/Cherry Street type place that northsiders could be proud of.  It would have also helped make transit easier and quicker and more cost efficient for the city and it's users to not have stuff spread out everywhere.

So much money, time and hard work to get all those things in that area but basically a mess because of thoughtless design.

[Ibanez]

Chet Cadiuex personally told me in 2007 they would not open in areas they believed to be unprofitable or have potential for shrink and/or employee/customer safety issues.  They have an existing store at Lewis & 46th St N, he did not see them opening any other stores in North Tulsa.

I've been told by a female clerk, engaged to one of my cousins, who has had to work shifts there that it is terribly frightening at night and the store suffers from more theft than other QT locations.

[AngieB]

I've been told by a female clerk, engaged to one of my cousins, who has had to work shifts there that it is terribly frightening at night and the store suffers from more theft than other QT locations.

Does QT not employ any kind of security? Just the free coffee for cops concept?

[DolfanBob]

Does QT not employ any kind of security? Just the free coffee for cops concept?

Other than cameras and usually four people working each shift who aren't allowed to try and stop theft. No they don't as far as I know.
Anyone for some free beer?

[AquaMan]

"Paging Jack Henderson, Paging Jack Henderson..."

Until north Tulsa will elect someone with a different paradigm than "South Tulsa is holding us down" they are going to be stuck with limited vision for their district.  Somebody younger with a more dynamic view of what can be instead of how they are being shafted is what District 1 needs.  Sorry, I'm just not a Henderson fan.

I was thinking about this issue last night and what kind of unconventional ideas would get a source of good staple food products to the area of Pine & Peoria.  Some ideas were farmers markets several days per week(granted the prices lot of producers charge for the produce at Cherry St. and other places would put a strain on budgets).  I also thought about a food pantry or neighborhood grocery subsidized and run by some of the larger churches in the area as an outreach mission or even as a cooperative effort with the Community Food Bank which is only about five or six blocks away from the former Gateway Market.  See if the landlord would split up the existing space to make it much more manageable and the rent more realistic for a venture like this.

I believe it was First Presbyterian which tried this concept on a small scale near the projects between Jackson and SW Blvd.  Not sure if it's still there or not.  IIRC, they were also presenting cooking and nutrition classes to show how easy it is to work with whole ingredients instead of relying on boxed goods for people's diets.

There has to be a way for the community to come together and make this a reality.  All it takes is an idea and the right people to make it happen.  Any other thoughts?

Good thoughts and I agree with you about Henderson. However, there is a dearth of leadership in the area and he may be all they've got right now. He also tends to be re-elected on the victim platform so as a politician he will keep doing what works. I was surprised to see him endorse the water in the river proposals. Strange since there seems little to be gained for that area.

I was curious about that grocery in between Brightwaters and Riverview. Nice little operation and a good prototype. The key to the black community in North Tulsa is the churches and the schools. Get them involved and they will fill that leadership void.

[AquaMan]

For most of Tulsa it is.  When we moved to the hill in 2009 we invited a few friends over for dinner.  One our friends asked if her purse was safe in her car while parked in my driveway.  They haven't been invited back.

I have observed that as well. For "most people" anything north of 44 is sketchy, north of 21st is curious, and north of Admiral is danger.

When I worked at the Office Depot on 15th at Lewis, new employees were warned to lock valuables in their cars and beware of homeless in the area. Never walk alone. They seemed oblivious that they were in one of the best demographic areas of the city filled with doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs and yes, street operators.

[carltonplace]

I've been told by a female clerk, engaged to one of my cousins, who has had to work shifts there that it is terribly frightening at night and the store suffers from more theft than other QT locations.

I can't imagine a QT with more fights, hoodlums, grifters, panhandlers, loiterers or shop lifters than 15th and Denver.

[Conan71]

Good thoughts and I agree with you about Henderson. However, there is a dearth of leadership in the area and he may be all they've got right now. He also tends to be re-elected on the victim platform so as a politician he will keep doing what works. I was surprised to see him endorse the water in the river proposals. Strange since there seems little to be gained for that area.

I was curious about that grocery in between Brightwaters and Riverview. Nice little operation and a good prototype. The key to the black community in North Tulsa is the churches and the schools. Get them involved and they will fill that leadership void.

Henderson is all they believe they have right now.  I don't understand how people are inspired by a message of defeat over one of hope and vision, but I digress.

At any rate I drove by the small market near the 23rd St. projects and it's still there and still open.  It is called Harvest Market.  I did not have time to stop in and chat with the operators to see how it has been received by the community, but IIRC, it's been there at least five or six years.  I do seem to recall they said they would not carry high shrinkage items like tobacco, beer (I wouldn't expect a church outreach to carry that stuff anyhow) or candy.  They also only accept EBT or cash.  That cuts your cost of doing business by 2.5 to 3% right there.  I'm curious what debit and credit card utilization was at the former Gateway and Albertson's.  I'm guessing not as high as other grocery stores around town.

Maybe it's time I quit talking about the problem and start working on a solution.  No idea why this strikes a chord with me, it just does.  Anyone connected to the outreach ministries of any of the larger churches in the area?

[DTowner]

"Paging Jack Henderson, Paging Jack Henderson..."

Until north Tulsa will elect someone with a different paradigm than "South Tulsa is holding us down" they are going to be stuck with limited vision for their district.  Somebody younger with a more dynamic view of what can be instead of how they are being shafted is what District 1 needs.  Sorry, I'm just not a Henderson fan.

I was thinking about this issue last night and what kind of unconventional ideas would get a source of good staple food products to the area of Pine & Peoria.  Some ideas were farmers markets several days per week(granted the prices lot of producers charge for the produce at Cherry St. and other places would put a strain on budgets).  I also thought about a food pantry or neighborhood grocery subsidized and run by some of the larger churches in the area as an outreach mission or even as a cooperative effort with the Community Food Bank which is only about five or six blocks away from the former Gateway Market.  See if the landlord would split up the existing space to make it much more manageable and the rent more realistic for a venture like this.

I believe it was First Presbyterian which tried this concept on a small scale near the projects between Jackson and SW Blvd.  Not sure if it's still there or not.  IIRC, they were also presenting cooking and nutrition classes to show how easy it is to work with whole ingredients instead of relying on boxed goods for people's diets.

There has to be a way for the community to come together and make this a reality.  All it takes is an idea and the right people to make it happen.  Any other thoughts?

When noodling around the internet on food desert issues, I came across a story from a couple of years ago about a couple starting a mobile food store that visits north Tulsa neighborhoods - kind of like the book mobile concept.  Interestingly, today is another story on this enterprise.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ginnie-graham-smaller-is-better-when-it-comes-to-feeding/article_6bb40859-67b3-5b5e-b60b-05ded4250b88.html

I think the gist of this article is right - the Albertson's store was wrong for the area.  Too big and too dependent on people driving there from a wide-spread area.  Instead, north Tulsa needs a number of smaller neighborhood food stores scattered throughout neighborhoods so that people without or with limited transportation options are much closer to the stores and the stores are more a part of the local community (I think "north Tulsa" gets used frequently in a very generic way to lump a lot of very different and distinct neighborhoods together that should not be).  Of course, use-based zoning (queue The Artist) and the competitive economics of the grocery business did away with that model many years ago. 

Hopefully city officials and north Tulsa leaders will rethink their approach to this issue and get away from trying to force a south Tulsa suburban type development like the Albertson's store and consider the realities of what is needed and what will work in these various north Tulsa communities. 

As for Henderson, when looking at the food desert issue, I came across a 2012 article from The Huffington Post about north Tulsa.  In it, some residents explicitly blamed the Tulsa race riot for the lack of a grocery store today -  never mind the numerous stores than have come and gone in the intervening years.  I think Henderson unfortunately reflects that too-widely held victimhood mentality when it comes to north Tulsa issues. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

I was thinking about this issue last night and what kind of unconventional ideas would get a source of good staple food products to the area of Pine & Peoria.  Some ideas were farmers markets several days per week(granted the prices lot of producers charge for the produce at Cherry St. and other places would put a strain on budgets).  I also thought about a food pantry or neighborhood grocery subsidized and run by some of the larger churches in the area as an outreach mission or even as a cooperative effort with the Community Food Bank which is only about five or six blocks away from the former Gateway Market.  See if the landlord would split up the existing space to make it much more manageable and the rent more realistic for a venture like this.

I believe it was First Presbyterian which tried this concept on a small scale near the projects between Jackson and SW Blvd.  Not sure if it's still there or not.  IIRC, they were also presenting cooking and nutrition classes to show how easy it is to work with whole ingredients instead of relying on boxed goods for people's diets.

Neighbor for Neighbor has had a food distribution presence in north Tulsa since the 60's - friends and I drove trucks for them in high school to donated food pickup locations.  The problems with an outreach mission or cooperative effort are massive... remember the Angel Food mission that was here then gone a few years ago??  We experienced their work from both sides....  and now they are gone.

If there is no "CEO" type like Rev Dan Allen, or a much larger organization like Salvation Army, it is very difficult to sustain for long time.  Places like that, and Community Food Bank, are in "fire fighting" mode...it's emergency room style food provisioning.  What this would need is a profitable entity for the next tier up in economic level that could maintain itself.  

A cooperative could be a great format to use.  The existing ones seem to be more high end oriented, like a CSA thing (community supported agriculture).  Can good food go hand in hand with low prices?  Might be a difficult task.  Maybe it could work if get neighborhood participation - like a real coop - perhaps in a Habitat for Humanity thought process for a grocery store - active participation of the people involved.  Credit Union??  Coop members participate in operation of their store, and get access to that store.  Active members (sweep the floors, wash the windows, paint the store, replace light bulbs, gather grocery carts, security guards, electrical, plumbing, mechanical....there are thousands of ways to be active participant) with membership card get a discount like so many stores have now, while non-active customers pay the the regular retail...   Profits obviously go into the ongoing operations, but perhaps like a credit union, lower costs are the "dividend" enjoyed by members.  If could work with place like Costco, when they get to town....or maybe even WalMart (who knows...it could happen) - since none of them want to go to the area, perhaps the place could get in on the buying power of those big guys just for this little local market thing.  If could get Costco or WM buying power for cost of food, prices could remain reasonable for the locals.  Get the owner of the building to sell it to the co-op - if not that building, another one.    Can a 501-X be a "stock" corporation?  Maybe a new form of non-profit is needed to have members.  (Sounds like something Jim Inhofe would jump on right away....LOL!  Sorry....couldn't resist...)

So maybe take some of the parts from NFN, Salvation Army, Community Food Bank, CSA, and roll them all together into a store that has to make it's own way with a little help from it's friends.....

Just throwing some "brainstorming" points out there as food for thought.....  


http://danallencenter.org/index.php?id=projects

[rdj]

When noodling around the internet on food desert issues, I came across a story from a couple of years ago about a couple starting a mobile food store that visits north Tulsa neighborhoods - kind of like the book mobile concept.  Interestingly, today is another story on this enterprise.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/ginnie-graham-smaller-is-better-when-it-comes-to-feeding/article_6bb40859-67b3-5b5e-b60b-05ded4250b88.html

I think the gist of this article is right - the Albertson's store was wrong for the area.  Too big and too dependent on people driving there from a wide-spread area.  Instead, north Tulsa needs a number of smaller neighborhood food stores scattered throughout neighborhoods so that people without or with limited transportation options are much closer to the stores and the stores are more a part of the local community (I think "north Tulsa" gets used frequently in a very generic way to lump a lot of very different and distinct neighborhoods together that should not be).  Of course, use-based zoning (queue The Artist) and the competitive economics of the grocery business did away with that model many years ago. 

Hopefully city officials and north Tulsa leaders will rethink their approach to this issue and get away from trying to force a south Tulsa suburban type development like the Albertson's store and consider the realities of what is needed and what will work in these various north Tulsa communities. 

As for Henderson, when looking at the food desert issue, I came across a 2012 article from The Huffington Post about north Tulsa.  In it, some residents explicitly blamed the Tulsa race riot for the lack of a grocery store today -  never mind the numerous stores than have come and gone in the intervening years.  I think Henderson unfortunately reflects that too-widely held victimhood mentality when it comes to north Tulsa issues. 

Thank you for posting this story from today's TW.  I was just about to.  Some futurists people believe the big box concept is dying.  Its extinction is more rapid in urban and depressed areas but they believe the big box is past its prime in suburbia. 

In my opinion north Tulsa needs the same thing downtown needs, the corner market.  A smaller store is easier to open, easier to manage and easier to control your inventory walking out the door.

[Conan71]

Neighbor for Neighbor has had a food distribution presence in north Tulsa since the 60's - friends and I drove trucks for them in high school to donated food pickup locations.  The problems with an outreach mission or cooperative effort are massive... remember the Angel Food mission that was here then gone a few years ago??  We experienced their work from both sides....  and now they are gone.

If there is no "CEO" type like Rev Dan Allen, or a much larger organization like Salvation Army, it is very difficult to sustain for long time.  Places like that, and Community Food Bank, are in "fire fighting" mode...it's emergency room style food provisioning.  What this would need is a profitable entity for the next tier up in economic level that could maintain itself.  

A cooperative could be a great format to use.  The existing ones seem to be more high end oriented, like a CSA thing (community supported agriculture).  Can good food go hand in hand with low prices?  Might be a difficult task.  Maybe it could work if get neighborhood participation - like a real coop - perhaps in a Habitat for Humanity thought process for a grocery store - active participation of the people involved.  Credit Union??  Coop members participate in operation of their store, and get access to that store.  Active members (sweep the floors, wash the windows, paint the store, replace light bulbs, gather grocery carts, security guards, electrical, plumbing, mechanical....there are thousands of ways to be active participant) with membership card get a discount like so many stores have now, while non-active customers pay the the regular retail...   Profits obviously go into the ongoing operations, but perhaps like a credit union, lower costs are the "dividend" enjoyed by members.  If could work with place like Costco, when they get to town....or maybe even WalMart (who knows...it could happen) - since none of them want to go to the area, perhaps the place could get in on the buying power of those big guys just for this little local market thing.  If could get Costco or WM buying power for cost of food, prices could remain reasonable for the locals.  Get the owner of the building to sell it to the co-op - if not that building, another one.    Can a 501-X be a "stock" corporation?  Maybe a new form of non-profit is needed to have members.  (Sounds like something Jim Inhofe would jump on right away....LOL!  Sorry....couldn't resist...)

So maybe take some of the parts from NFN, Salvation Army, Community Food Bank, CSA, and roll them all together into a store that has to make it's own way with a little help from it's friends.....

Just throwing some "brainstorming" points out there as food for thought.....  


http://danallencenter.org/index.php?id=projects

All really good points, H.  Angel Food had issues dating back a few years due to some financial irregularities in the management of the non-profit.  I know GUTS Church does a food ministry as I had an unemployed neighbor who used it.  Far as I know they got day old bread, items close to expiration or just over, and bruised, but not rotted produce from local grocers. At least I believe that's the angle.  It's incredible how much perfectly good nutrition goes to waste because it's a day or two out of date in a sealed package or because it doesn't look as pretty because it has a bruise or two.

I do believe the Scott Smith involved with the mobile market was the same guy who operated Blue Jackalope Market in the Brady Heights neighborhood.

I notice a sidebar to the article posted by DTowner that there's movement in the local community to come up with smaller markets.  I like that angle as it could encourage more entrepreneurship in an area desperately in need of it:

"The big supermarket model does not fit for the community," said Katie Plohocky, president of the Healthy Community Store Initiative in Tulsa. "We keep trying it, and it's not working. We have to look at a different model."

For six months, Plohocky and co-owner Scott Smith have been taking a mobile grocery store into Tulsa neighborhoods located in food deserts.
The Real Good Food Truck is part of the Healthy Community Store Initiative, which is an affiliate of the Tulsa Community Foundation that was launched in January.

Transportation is a big obstacle for people in low-income neighborhoods, as well as for older and disabled residents. City bus service often requires multiple transfers, limited routes in some areas of town and no service on Sundays.

Often, the amount and type of food a consumer can buy is limited by riding the bus. Some residents carry luggage or coolers on the bus to haul food home.

Plohocky said many north Tulsa residents were not shopping at Gateway because it was easier to get a city bus to the Wal-Mart Supercenter at 81st Street and Lewis Avenue.

"It was quicker for them to get on a bus with a straight shot there instead of the four-hour round trip to Gateway, even though it was technically closer," Plohocky said.

Gateway Market was housed in a former Albertsons location. The store opened in 2010 after the building had sat empty for more than four years after Albertsons closed.

Antonio Perez, owner of Gateway Market, said the store closed because it was not making enough money to pay its bills. The $2.2 million in Community Development Block Grant loans he secured to operate the store will be repaid.

North Tulsa resident Billie Parker, who rented space in the building for an African-themed boutique, started meeting with a group — Community Unity North — that wants to attract another grocer.

"Everybody is upset, down and sad about this," Parker said. "We can't ever have something, and it's pitiful. We want to get our own grocery store because we're tired of begging for someone to let us buy food from them."

The group is planning a farmer's market and flea market from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. Sept. 5-7 at 5210 N. Peoria Ave., Parker said.
"We're going to start small, but we've got to start somewhere," she said.

That next step could come in the fall, when a second phase of the Healthy Community Store begins, Plohocky said.

This is when areas in Tulsa will be identified for possible micro-stores — of about 3,000 to 5,000 square feet — operated by neighborhood residents.
Plohocky said the spaces will provide enough room, pointing out that the mobile store holds more than 600 products in a 224-square-foot area.

The mobile store is gathering data such as foot traffic, sales and inventory at its various stops.

"This way a person who might be interested in a store can see the market research," Plohocky said. "There used to be 32 community-owned grocery stores, and we'd like to see that again."

[heironymouspasparagus]

All really good points, H.  Angel Food had issues dating back a few years due to some financial irregularities in the management of the non-profit.  I know GUTS Church does a food ministry as I had an unemployed neighbor who used it.  Far as I know they got day old bread, items close to expiration or just over, and bruised, but not rotted produce from local grocers. At least I believe that's the angle.  It's incredible how much perfectly good nutrition goes to waste because it's a day or two out of date in a sealed package or because it doesn't look as pretty because it has a bruise or two.

I do believe the Scott Smith involved with the mobile market was the same guy who operated Blue Jackalope Market in the Brady Heights neighborhood.

I notice a sidebar to the article posted by DTowner that there's movement in the local community to come up with smaller markets.  I like that angle as it could encourage more entrepreneurship in an area desperately in need of it:

We had to partake of the Angel Food system for a while a few years ago...edible, decent food.

Massive amount of food waste in this country - probably 'cause it's so cheap.  I buy baked goods intentionally from the 'day old store' when I can.  When Wonder bread was still here, that's where we got a lot of the stuff for NFN (long time ago).


Transportation is something we have beat to death here, but that is a huge issue that just shows how bad we need more capacity!  WalMart has a policy of charging higher prices in the poorer areas they are in specifically because they have more of a captive audience - the residents don't have the transportation available that gives them the option to go to another area!!  May be "good" economics, but it is morally evil...!

Maybe we should introduce them to google...?

[Conan71]

We had to partake of the Angel Food system for a while a few years ago...edible, decent food.

Massive amount of food waste in this country - probably 'cause it's so cheap.  I buy baked goods intentionally from the 'day old store' when I can.  When Wonder bread was still here, that's where we got a lot of the stuff for NFN (long time ago).


Transportation is something we have beat to death here, but that is a huge issue that just shows how bad we need more capacity!  WalMart has a policy of charging higher prices in the poorer areas they are in specifically because they have more of a captive audience - the residents don't have the transportation available that gives them the option to go to another area!!  May be "good" economics, but it is morally evil...!

Maybe we should introduce them to google...

Do you think it's purely malicious pricing or simply having to charge higher prices due to shrinkage which seems to be higher in lower income areas?

A few years ago on a thread about the renovation of what is now the Campbell Hotel on 11th St. it was pointed out there was a Safeway at one end of the original structure.  I think it was Michael Bates who posted a listing from a 1957 Tulsa phone book and there were at least 10-15 Safeway stores around the city and many mom and pop operations as well.  At that time, a two car family was more uncommon so there would be full service groceries within a reasonable walk from any neighborhood.  Two of the last neighborhood grocers I can think of were Yeakleys (sp?) on Cherry St. and I believe it was H & H at 33rd W. Ave & I-44.

Of course, as the city became more suburban and we became more car dependent, the neighborhood grocery was replaced by the convenience store.  Less emphasis on fresh products more emphasis on all sorts of unhealthy crap.  Interesting how the neighborhood grocery was replaced by a complete antithesis.