Th Politics of Groceries: Gateway closed today 7/29/2014

[DTowner]

In my opinion north Tulsa needs the same thing downtown needs, the corner market.  A smaller store is easier to open, easier to manage and easier to control your inventory walking out the door.

I absolutely agree that a return of the corner market would substantially eliminate the food desert problem and bring  some needed vitality to these neighborhoods.  I didn't post it above because my post was running long, but I remember that the older parts of the town I grew up in Missouri had all of these little markets literally on the corner every few blocks.  Even when I was young, many had already closed or had become more like convenience stores, but the notion of these food markets tucked into residential neighborhoods always made sense to me.

[DTowner]

Neighbor for Neighbor has had a food distribution presence in north Tulsa since the 60's - friends and I drove trucks for them in high school to donated food pickup locations.  The problems with an outreach mission or cooperative effort are massive... remember the Angel Food mission that was here then gone a few years ago??  We experienced their work from both sides....  and now they are gone.

If there is no "CEO" type like Rev Dan Allen, or a much larger organization like Salvation Army, it is very difficult to sustain for long time.  Places like that, and Community Food Bank, are in "fire fighting" mode...it's emergency room style food provisioning.  What this would need is a profitable entity for the next tier up in economic level that could maintain itself.  

A cooperative could be a great format to use.  The existing ones seem to be more high end oriented, like a CSA thing (community supported agriculture).  Can good food go hand in hand with low prices?  Might be a difficult task.  Maybe it could work if get neighborhood participation - like a real coop - perhaps in a Habitat for Humanity thought process for a grocery store - active participation of the people involved.  Credit Union??  Coop members participate in operation of their store, and get access to that store.  Active members (sweep the floors, wash the windows, paint the store, replace light bulbs, gather grocery carts, security guards, electrical, plumbing, mechanical....there are thousands of ways to be active participant) with membership card get a discount like so many stores have now, while non-active customers pay the the regular retail...   Profits obviously go into the ongoing operations, but perhaps like a credit union, lower costs are the "dividend" enjoyed by members.  If could work with place like Costco, when they get to town....or maybe even WalMart (who knows...it could happen) - since none of them want to go to the area, perhaps the place could get in on the buying power of those big guys just for this little local market thing.  If could get Costco or WM buying power for cost of food, prices could remain reasonable for the locals.  Get the owner of the building to sell it to the co-op - if not that building, another one.    Can a 501-X be a "stock" corporation?  Maybe a new form of non-profit is needed to have members.  (Sounds like something Jim Inhofe would jump on right away....LOL!  Sorry....couldn't resist...)

So maybe take some of the parts from NFN, Salvation Army, Community Food Bank, CSA, and roll them all together into a store that has to make it's own way with a little help from it's friends.....

Just throwing some "brainstorming" points out there as food for thought.....  


http://danallencenter.org/index.php?id=projects

Without diving into a welfare debate, I think the need-based food distribution networks and systems are a different issue from the food desert issue.  There are a lot of people across north Tulsa with the financial means to buy food, they just don't have the place in which to do it.

[TheArtist]

I absolutely agree that a return of the corner market would substantially eliminate the food desert problem and bring  some needed vitality to these neighborhoods.  I didn't post it above because my post was running long, but I remember that the older parts of the town I grew up in Missouri had all of these little markets literally on the corner every few blocks.  Even when I was young, many had already closed or had become more like convenience stores, but the notion of these food markets tucked into residential neighborhoods always made sense to me.

Pretty much illegal with the current zoning. And the current Mayor and most on the city council want to keep it that way.

[AquaMan]

We studied the concept of poor urban area pricing in college 4 decades ago. The reason is not shrinkage, its merely "because we can". There is less competition in those underserved markets so no real reason to price competitively. Same reason Petty's used to be so high compared to Safeway or why a gallon of gas is cheaper at a QT location with competition nearby. It created a lot of controversy and even though those stores were inherently more profitable because of the lower rents, captive audiences and lack of competition, most chains yielded to the pressure and either left or adjusted pricing.

I love the idea of getting multiple small grocery store locations throughout that area.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Without diving into a welfare debate, I think the need-based food distribution networks and systems are a different issue from the food desert issue.  There are a lot of people across north Tulsa with the financial means to buy food, they just don't have the place in which to do it.

I agree absolutely and completely - that's what I was trying to get at talking about how this is a level (or two or three or more) above the food bank scenario....it's not an emergency food issue like the food bank is.  It's an availability issue.  It's the need for access to what we had when I was growing up - living part time in Kansas, and Iowa.  In both places there were the small "Mom and Pop" stores within walking distance....two blocks in both cases.

Fewer shops - one - with a longer distance - but still walking distance - is what Gateway seemed to provide.  (Talking from no experience with them - never went there.)  Seems like they were the "oasis" if you will, in that desert... I think there could be a good market opportunity there with a community participation element (the co-op scenario).

Definitely won't work as a "welfare" thing - we have multitude of cases where a group swoops in, gonna change the world, starts up/sets up/builds/does stuff...then something happens and it all fizzles out.  Must be an internally driven event from the neighborhood(s) to make it work.  "Seed" capital is probably required - perhaps from outside, perhaps from some type of 'subscription' basis in the area, but must be something that is mostly sourced from the area. 

Lots of different kinds of examples of this approach - some I mentioned before - credit unions, VVEC - Verdigris Valley Electric Cooperative, the REC efforts from last century, Community Supported Agriculture systems.  HOA's - Home Owner Associations are a kind of variation on the theme - instead of groceries, they keep up common areas, provide for upkeep of infrastructure like pools, parks, gates at the entrance, etc.  Groups of people working together for a common interest.  Grocery co-ops exist, it's just that most of them I have seen/heard about are very upscale, trendy, organic, faddish food suppliers.  This needs good groceries, good selections, at reasonable prices, with people involved who have a vested interest in it's success.  And if there were a way to develop a relationship with the big guys who won't put a place there, but like to brag about "giving back to the community" - well what better opportunity than getting involved with this type of enterprise - get some PR with no actual monetary outlay!   Not 'donations', just let the co-op share the existing supply chain.  If North Tulsa Grocery Co-op (NTGC - just a name for me to reference easily) could place a fulfillment order the same way a WalMart store does - pay the same price as an internal store - WalMart still makes the same money on the internal transfer as they would from one of their stores - except that is isn't "funny money" within divisions, it's cash coming in from the NTGC.  WalMart gets actual revenue, albeit at a slightly reduced margin, NTGC members get the benefit in the area, and charges a regular retail to non-members.  HAVE to show a member card or you don't get the discount.  Maybe limit membership to a walking radius?  If lot's of people want to come in from outside, then find out where they are coming from - may need to start another branch in another under-served area.

WalMart STILL gets bragging rights to "millions of dollars" back to the community - with no cash outlay!!   Or maybe Costco, if WM doesn't have that kind of vision....

If a person has a vested interest - as a member/owner - then they tend to take care of that interest.  More people might watch out and be concerned about 'shrinkage', since that would drop very quickly to the bottom line of the money it costs them.  As a membership situation, perhaps people shoplifting are banned for life....?  Lawyers amongst us - wouldn't that fall under the "right to refuse service" rules?

Where is Sam Walton when you need him?

Or George Kaiser?  I bet he could put up a little seed money and this thing would take off.  He might even get a return on the investment....which actually might not be what would interest him...maybe he needs the deductions more than the revenue...  ??



Just more brainstorming thoughts..... alternate paths/modes of operation.... or maybe just an herbal induced pipe dream fantasy??

[heironymouspasparagus]

Do you think it's purely malicious pricing or simply having to charge higher prices due to shrinkage which seems to be higher in lower income areas?

Absolutely not!  At least not in every case - I have two specific locations, one in OK, and one in a state east of here where the local WalMart is more than 10 miles from another WalMart.  Both towns are lower economically than the closest next store.  Both towns have very low crime rates of all kinds including shoplifting.  Both charge higher prices than that next nearest store!  Consistently, day in, day out for decades!

And they have captive audiences.

And the produce in one of them particularly, is always inferior to the store that charges less, 14 miles away.  Well, with WM, that is really parsing it finely, I know....none of them have great produce...  But you get the idea.

Bring it to Tulsa...well, that may be more of a factor, but I got a feeling that would be more smoke screen than reality....  there are limited number I shop at in town and I can see pennies difference from time to time, but generally not enough to intrude to far into my world.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I absolutely agree that a return of the corner market would substantially eliminate the food desert problem and bring  some needed vitality to these neighborhoods.  I didn't post it above because my post was running long, but I remember that the older parts of the town I grew up in Missouri had all of these little markets literally on the corner every few blocks.  Even when I was young, many had already closed or had become more like convenience stores, but the notion of these food markets tucked into residential neighborhoods always made sense to me.

One I would go to in KS with grandfather - he had some issues with walking - so would get in his '55 Buick Special, start it up, and drive at 12 mph all the way to the little corner market 2 blocks away....  always a grand adventure!

These places always had the wooden screen door with the metal band across the middle (Bubble-Up soda on this one) that would make the most satisfying bang when you went inside and let it go!!  Wood floors that would creak as you walked over them!  Just like the old Warehouse Market at 11th and Elgin!!  And the Hunter ceiling fans rotating slowly above you.  Surrounded on all sides by houses.  The building was still there until about 5 years ago....they needed a parking lot, I guess!  Wow!  I just had a thought - they are going all "big city" like Tulsa - making parking lots where there used to be character!!

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/310818811754008229/

[guido911]

Riffing on the thread title.

[Conan71]

Or George Kaiser?  I bet he could put up a little seed money and this thing would take off.  He might even get a return on the investment....which actually might not be what would interest him...maybe he needs the deductions more than the revenue...  ??

You know, that almost sounds like the sort of community initiative the KFF likes.

It would be interesting to compare prices at the Admiral and Memorial WalMart and the one at 111th and Memorial to see if there's any pricing differences.

[Townsend]

You know, that almost sounds like the sort of community initiative the KFF likes.

It would be interesting to compare prices at the Admiral and Memorial WalMart and the one at 111th and Memorial to see if there's any pricing differences.

I went in for a fishing license this year, 111th and Memorial.  Only reason I've been in a Walmart for quite some time.  Still full of "people of Walmart".

On a side note, if you walk into a Walmart with khakis and a blue collared shirt, you may be asked by an older gentleman for help in the electronics department.

[heironymouspasparagus]

On a side note, if you walk into a Walmart with khakis and a blue collared shirt, you may be asked by an older gentleman for help in the electronics department.

I have had several people ask me for help in Walmart!!  Guess I look like a greeter....

And yeah, I helped them if I knew where it was....

[Hoss]

I went in for a fishing license this year, 111th and Memorial.  Only reason I've been in a Walmart for quite some time.  Still full of "people of Walmart".

On a side note, if you walk into a Walmart with khakis and a blue collared shirt, you may be asked by an older gentleman for help in the electronics department.

Of course, when I moved back to Tulsa in 1994, I had the opportunity to buy a lifetime license for $100.  I should have done it; I don't believe they offer them anymore.  It would have been a combo fishing/hunting license.

[Red Arrow]

On a side note, if you walk into a Walmart with khakis and a blue collared shirt, you may be asked by an older gentleman for help in the electronics department.

Lesson learned: Don't go to WalMart wearing Khakis and a blue collared shirt.

[Conan71]

Sorry, when I hear khaki these days, this is all that comes to mind:



"She sounds hideous!"

[heironymouspasparagus]

Of course, when I moved back to Tulsa in 1994, I had the opportunity to buy a lifetime license for $100.  I should have done it; I don't believe they offer them anymore.  It would have been a combo fishing/hunting license.

You should be able to still get one...just more than $100.  Am getting ready to get mine soon...but since I am so old it is only about $30 combined....  I buy a regular license - hunting and fishing - every year, even if I don't get the chance to go, for the one simple fact - this is where the wildlife department gets most of its money and I support their work 100%!!  There is no entity in this country that does more on a broader basis for wildlife in general, than the state wildlife departments!!  If one has concerns about wildlife and habitat and renewal of wildlife populations, there is NO better leverage of one's support than to buy a combo license - even if you don't hunt and fish!  

I also occasionally buy the state and federal migratory fowl stamps.... love the pretty pictures!!