Th Politics of Groceries: Gateway closed today 7/29/2014

[Red Arrow]

I get frustrated at the minimum wage debate because we seem to enjoy making policies that further marginalize some reasonably hardworking folks who are dangerously close to functioning on the margins of society already.

I get frustrated with the concept that people on the edge of society have no responsibility to learn a skill that will make them more valuable (higher wages) to society.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I get frustrated with the concept that people on the edge of society have no responsibility to learn a skill that will make them more valuable (higher wages) to society.

Oh, puuullllleeeezzzzeeeeee.... you are way to old to not know better than that!!

[guido911]

Damn, great idea!  I could pull the pity card all the time around my liberal leaning friends.

This is the best I could find:

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I've been following this thread, as it seems that this is an underserved area of Tulsa and trying to understand why other grocers have and do survive in areas similar and worse than this area in Tulsa. In the Phoenix area and the LA areas most of these stores are similar to Warehouse Market in size and selection of goods, and the biggest thing seems to be they are supported by a regional chain. In Phoenix, in the lower income areas there is Food City which is a part of Basha's Grocery Stores. For the most part they cater to the areas served and while some have pharmacies in the store, they don't carry the items that would be loss leaders. (No beer, alcohol, and limited tobacco) The fortunate thing is the public transportation is quite good in these areas, and it seems that most of the crime is not related to the stores. Even CVS, Walgreens, Circle K, 7-11, AM-PM, and the independent owned C-Stores, while having issues, have not turned tail and run.


Does Reasor's have a small market store model that could be adapted to fit this market area? I get the whole natural food, organic market model, and I know about WM (Warehouse Market, I used to shop the one on N. Sheridan), but is WM not willing to create a store here? I understand the fact that the old Albertson's was not what was needed, and the building is just too large for someone to open a small neighborhood market, sounds like a bad design from the start.

The thing that I have found on the left coast is you have large regional chains that also cater to the small market areas, and even the high risk areas, and you have small chains/stores that do quite well in difficult areas.

[TulsaRufnex]

I get frustrated with the concept that people on the edge of society have no responsibility to learn a skill that will make them more valuable (higher wages) to society.

Wow.
Have you witnessed the money grubbing that goes on in the technical colleges sector along with their bloated promises?
Honest day's pay for an honest day's work...
Maybe you should ACTUALLY MEET some of these people rather than make blanket social judgements... just sayin'

[TulsaRufnex]

I've been following this thread, as it seems that this is an underserved area of Tulsa and trying to understand why other grocers have and do survive in areas similar and worse than this area in Tulsa. In the Phoenix area and the LA areas most of these stores are similar to Warehouse Market in size and selection of goods, and the biggest thing seems to be they are supported by a regional chain. In Phoenix, in the lower income areas there is Food City which is a part of Basha's Grocery Stores. For the most part they cater to the areas served and while some have pharmacies in the store, they don't carry the items that would be loss leaders. (No beer, alcohol, and limited tobacco) The fortunate thing is the public transportation is quite good in these areas, and it seems that most of the crime is not related to the stores. Even CVS, Walgreens, Circle K, 7-11, AM-PM, and the independent owned C-Stores, while having issues, have not turned tail and run.


Does Reasor's have a small market store model that could be adapted to fit this market area? I get the whole natural food, organic market model, and I know about WM (Warehouse Market, I used to shop the one on N. Sheridan), but is WM not willing to create a store here? I understand the fact that the old Albertson's was not what was needed, and the building is just too large for someone to open a small neighborhood market, sounds like a bad design from the start.

The thing that I have found on the left coast is you have large regional chains that also cater to the small market areas, and even the high risk areas, and you have small chains/stores that do quite well in difficult areas.

Several good points.

Problem is, the money/subsidy was all about locating in that huge space.
You could literally fit two or three Warehouse Markets in that space.
The only regional supermarket chain IMHO that might be able to make a go of that large a space would be OKC's Buy For Less ... http://www.buyforlessok.com/

My POV is from living in different areas of Chicago in which it didn't make much sense to drive to a huge supermarket if you didn't have to and the neighborhood could have reasonably been labeled a "food desert"... the City Alderman in one area I lived found a way to entice Sav-A-Lot to locate a store there-- appropriate for an area that was pretty marginal at the time I lived there which pre-dates the northside of Chicago's more recent gentrification...

Also, there's additional pressures due to stores like Walgreens, CVS, and heck... QT, too... getting into the business of selling more and more grocery items... the Owen Park/Easton Heights/Gilcrease neighborhood looks a bit like a "food desert" itself as there are a surprising number of "car-challenged" people who do the majority of their grocery shopping at Family Dollar, Walgreens and Braum's...

[Red Arrow]

Wow.
Have you witnessed the money grubbing that goes on in the technical colleges sector along with their bloated promises?
Honest day's pay for an honest day's work...
Maybe you should ACTUALLY MEET some of these people rather than make blanket social judgements... just sayin'

Supposedly a family of 4 needs $50,000/yr.  At 2000 hrs/year (40 hour work week, 10 days of holidays and vacation/sick time) that would be $25/hr.  Is flipping burgers or sweeping the floor worth $25/hr?

[TulsaRufnex]

Supposedly a family of 4 needs $50,000/yr.  At 2000 hrs/year (40 hour work week, 10 days of holidays and vacation/sick time) that would be $25/hr.  Is flipping burgers or sweeping the floor worth $25/hr?

The minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.
So, how much is one person's work worth?

[Red Arrow]

The minimum wage is $7.25 per hour.
So, how much is one person's work worth?

That's what I'm asking you. Give us a number.  I won't argue the $7.25 number but is flipping burgers worth $25/hr?  At what point do we say that someone needs more skills?  I am a licensed professional engineer in the State of Oklahoma. Is that not worth more than someone only qualified to flip burgers?  If not, I really wasted a lot of time and effort on my education and professional credentials.

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is the best I could find:

Ever been on Facebook??  That IS the whole point of that mess!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's what I'm asking you. Give us a number.  I won't argue the $7.25 number but is flipping burgers worth $25/hr?  At what point do we say that someone needs more skills?  I am a licensed professional engineer in the State of Oklahoma. Is that not worth more than someone only qualified to flip burgers?  If not, I really wasted a lot of time and effort on my education and professional credentials.

I have given a number repeatedly - $10.00 an hour minimum!   The SAME amount as was being paid in 1968.  Now, am revising that to $11.

And as I have said before, there is NO job being done in this country worth less than that!  And if a so-called "management" can't think of how to use the massive explosion of technology, tools, equipment that have evolved since 1968, then their incompetent butts have no place being there.


As for your school, skills, credentials - yeah, me too, add MSEE - and like the vast majority of engineers you have a massive case of tunnel vision that keeps you focused on who is following you!  Understandable, because in every industry, and every job category, you are being subjected to wage compression - and it has gotten much worse the older you have get!  You must have noticed this, or you need some 'continuing education' in the outside world!   And unless you are using that stamp regularly, yeah, the PE was a big waste of time and effort.

What you should be looking at is why that guy sitting in one of the top two or three levels of company management is making 3 times what you make!  You went through a rigorous engineering curriculum, with massive doses of STEM.  You are literally in the top 1% of people with the kind of mind who can make modern society happen.  And yet, somebody who was able to sail through a liberal arts bachelor's program, then do some simple business cases in MBA school - and has the gift of gab, tells you that you are only worth $100 to 150k for your contribution - or $75k in Oklahoma!  But their contribution is worth a $700 k base with "other" bonuses, stock options, and miscellaneous worth an additional $15 million - average CEO compensation now in the US!  At a maximum 15% tax point for the "other".

Engineers as a whole have this strange, myopic view of the world that keeps them from being compensated proportionally compared to their relative compensation.  For all their smarts, they are mostly too dumb to realize that a union is the best thing in the world for them....not like the Teamsters, but more like doctors and lawyers have!

[davideinstein]

Only, there are few, or no QT's in OKC either. Nor Dallas, nor Minneapolis. And there are no Love's in Broken Arrow! Those are business realities. Unless you know one of the owners or have inside info as to why there is no QT at Pine and Peoria or anywhere north of Admiral, those are just observations.

Two questions.

What are the populations north of Pine and south of Pine?

How QuikTrips are north of Pine and south of Pine?

[davideinstein]

There's only about 114 in the DFW metro.  There's also six QT's north of Admiral, including one at *GASP* 46th Noff & Lewis.

edit: Just for fun here's where all QT is these days:

Georgia: Atlanta (130 stores)
Texas: Dallas/Fort Worth (114 stores)
Arizona: Phoenix (88 stores)
Arizona: Tucson (17 stores)
Kansas: Wichita (38 stores)
Kansas/Missouri: Kansas City (82 stores)
Missouri/Illinois: St. Louis (75 stores)
Oklahoma: Tulsa (70 stores)
Iowa: Des Moines (24 stores)
Nebraska: Omaha (12 stores)
South Carolina: Greenville/Spartanburg (24 stores)
North and South Carolina: Charlotte (26 stores)

What QT's are north of Admiral? I know there are three (off of the top of my head) along 244 and Admiral and the Lewis store mentioned.

Also, QT's best market outside of Tulsa is the Atlanta area. From an employee I know that works for them in that area, there long term plan is to move up I85 and invest heavily in the Carolinas.

[davideinstein]

Guilty as charged. I was trying to make the point that observations are not necessarily based on profit/loss business decisions. When someone says that its obvious that since there is no QT at Pine and Peoria it must be judged a business bad location, that is a false assumption.

Glad QT is doing well. I am a big customer.

How is it a false assumption? The business growth goes where the profit is. Unless someone has an emotional attachment to a certain area, it comes down to the bottom line.

[davideinstein]

Unfortunately, those pockets of misery and crime take their toll on the nicer parts of north Tulsa when it comes to amenities.  I absolutely refuse to ride the bike trail from OSU Tulsa to Skiatook ever again.  It has nothing to do with perceived danger, it's the broken glass and other debris deliberately strewn on the trail and young thugs hanging out in the middle of the trail who refuse to move when you approach them.  We do nice things for north Tulsa like parks and rec centers and eventually they are plagued by graffiti and become gang hang-outs.  Again, reality not perception.

I feel far safer riding Cincinnati or Peoria where at least there's enough visibility people won't mess with you.  Or they figure that middle-aged white boy in spandex on a bicycle riding up MLK must be crazy, so don't mess with him.

The sad part is we have a lot of workers along the 66th Street corridor that live in other parts of Tulsa and would love to commute by bike if they felt safe and didn't get flats.