Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[LandArchPoke]

They are thousands of well kept "snout houses" in very nice areas and then there are blighted old run down apartment buildings. You're trying to start a fight with me and I am not going to entertain it any further.

Angie - I'm not trying to pick at you about this, because most people tend to think this way and it would be unfair to think you a mean person, etc. for wanting to move Section 8 housing away from where you live.

I would look at it this way, is these are still families - and for a lot of them that's probably the only place they've ever lived. I don't think you'd want someone coming in and saying you have to move so we can build a mall and just deal with it, which is typically what happens to poor people. Most of these people will have a hard time finding a way to move expenses wise, and what happens if their job is at Tulsa Hills and now they are told they have to move to far East Tulsa or North Tulsa. Their bus commute goes from 15 minutes to 2 hours. Or worse, they loose their job. Not all section 8 residents are jobless. I'd just encourage you to think about the hardships we would be proposing on these residents of Tulsa just so we don't have to look at poor people or their homes and so we can get a new outlet mall.

The crime rate at the outlet mall will be considerably higher than at that complex currently anyways as well.

If the city is proposing to do this, they need to not kick out these residents they need to incorporate a new multifamily development into the mix that is a mixed-income development. Have new market rate units and "affordable/section 8" units as a mix of the development. This was very successful in Kendall Whitter and is quickly become the national standard of integrating affordable housing that instead of shunning these people into mass complexes you integrate them into society and give them a place with opportunity and a place they can be proud of.

[Conan71]

SO the city will have a hard time even with the whole land swap idea?

There's a history that goes back a couple of years when residents living west of Union got an apartment development shot down on land east of Union and south of 71st St.

As far as residents around the area I've spoken with: their primary concern had to do with more traffic, activity, light pollution, etc.  Some were also concerned about destruction of land contiguous to Turkey Mountain, but that didn't seem to be the primary concern.

People can call it NIMBYism, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.  Many people chose to live on the west side, particularly south of I-44 because of it's more rural feel and lower density of commercial clutter.  Residents who have been there for decades are the ones who seem more reticent about this development because they moved there to escape shopping and apartment type density.

Now that commercial development and apartments have come to SW Tulsa, it's taking away that rural feel.  Drive around the area from 33rd W. Ave to 75 and from 51st to 81st or so.  There's still quite a bit of wooded areas and where there is development- such as Riverfield Country Day School, even it is hidden somewhat in the trees.

Grizzle may recall this from the SWT small area plan, the area from 71st to 61st along Union was to be considered an "equestrian corridor" with some way to link up to trails at Turkey Mountain.  This was something I discovered when I first started researching area zoning after Simon announced their intention to develop there.

[sgrizzle]

Current plan I think has Union as. Main Street corridor, but they just redid the rode as two lanes. Not built for traffic.

[Red Arrow]

People can call it NIMBYism, but I see it from a slightly different perspective.  Many people chose to live on the west side, particularly south of I-44 because of it's more rural feel and lower density of commercial clutter.  Residents who have been there for decades are the ones who seem more reticent about this development because they moved there to escape shopping and apartment type density.

I can relate to that.

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

For those of us who need such things to follow the story, here's a map courtesy of the Tulsa Frontier. Plus an article to go along.

[patric]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/developer-for-proposed-tulsa-mall-gets-rezoning-hearing-rescheduled/article_e990a478-571f-5a8c-a650-745d76da0d53.html

It appears Turkey Mountain is still on the burner.

[SXSW]

Yet another example of how special the Turkey Mountain urban wilderness is and how lucky Tulsa is to have this in the city limits...waterfalls in the gulch by the Mystery Trail.  You have to catch it after rains though as it's typically just a trickle or dry.




http://brianstrailjournal.blogspot.com/

[Conan71]

I was completely unaware of that until you posted it, that is very, very cool...and unexpected.

[SouthTulsaCountyDude]

Anyone heard anything further about this going to Jenks?   

[Conan71]

I've been told by someone in development that it's all but a done deal in Jenks.  However, I don't see Simon announcing anything else until the COT does one thing or the other about the Horizon development in east Tulsa.  Simon will keep showing interest in the proposed land swap and wait until the city turns a cold shoulder on Horizon then Simon will crap on the COT and announce the Jenks deal is going ahead.  Or they simply pack their bags and leave town having spent somewhere around +/- $500K to provide all the optics to keep competitors from building an outlet mall in Tulsa.

The Woodmont/Cherokee deal seems to be DOA at least as far as it being an outlet mall the size of something which would compete with either Simon or Horizon.

[cannon_fodder]

It's a smart play from Simon's perspective to keep the City of Tulsa on the line, it hinders their competitors and costs Simon nothing. If the City of Tulsa is happy to get played, then so be it. Unless the City knows something that isn't public. Frankly, the silence is a bit scary. I wouldn't be surprised if our benevolent development overlords are working on deals to make the Turkey Mountain site a go in spite of opposition. "We'll go to Jenks damnit! OK OK! Build whatever you want! Do you need a Golden Driller? We have a stautte of the father of Route 66. Take 'em!"

Has anyone ever figure out why the City seems to set on doing a deal with Simon? There are TWO proposals out there in the City of Tulsa, one met with loud opposition and came with strings attached, the other seems relatively simple. Am I missing something?

[swake]

It's a smart play from Simon's perspective to keep the City of Tulsa on the line, it hinders their competitors and costs Simon nothing. If the City of Tulsa is happy to get played, then so be it. Unless the City knows something that isn't public. Frankly, the silence is a bit scary. I wouldn't be surprised if our benevolent development overlords are working on deals to make the Turkey Mountain site a go in spite of opposition. "We'll go to Jenks damnit! OK OK! Build whatever you want! Do you need a Golden Driller? We have a stautte of the father of Route 66. Take 'em!"

Has anyone ever figure out why the City seems to set on doing a deal with Simon? There are TWO proposals out there in the City of Tulsa, one met with loud opposition and came with strings attached, the other seems relatively simple. Am I missing something?

Simon is large enough to shove the competitors out.

I'm most afraid of your scenario, Tulsa is going to cave on everything at Turkey Mountain to keep the development from going to Jenks.

[Conan71]

Simon is large enough to shove the competitors out.

I'm most afraid of your scenario, Tulsa is going to cave on everything at Turkey Mountain to keep the development from going to Jenks.

I'm very confident with conversations I've had with councilors that the council won't let it happen.  There's no way the city can circumvent their approval, even if Simon came up with a plan which fit the existing zoning, it would have to go before TMAPC and the Council due to the corridor zoning already in place.  That part was explained to me by a councilor who should know what he's talking about.

[swake]

My preference still will be to see it on the west bank of the river complimentary to downtown and the gathering place. Put the mall and Top Golf together with some housing and hotel space around it.

[Conan71]

My preference still will be to see it on the west bank of the river complimentary to downtown and the gathering place. Put the mall and Top Golf together with some housing and hotel space around it.

I don't think there is a parcel large enough to accommodate Simon at the river.  One of the Simon VPs related to me that they needed 35 to 37 acres at a minimum.  I don't think there's that much acreage available along the west bank without shutting down trails, the refinery, or other commercial/residential sites.