Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[sauerkraut]

Useually outlet malls are for tourists or people who travel  up & down highway 75. They are not normally geared for local residents.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Useually outlet malls are for tourists or people who travel  up & down highway 75. They are not normally geared for local residents.

You really are clueless. Outlet malls aren't just tourist traps. The two in the Phoenix area draw as many locals as they do travelers.

http://www.simon.com/mall/arizona-mills

http://www.outletsanthem.com/

I realize that Wally World is high end shopping for you, but geeeez, get your head out of the sand, and if you love DFW so much, move there.

[sgrizzle]

We already established that.  Still trying to verify if Kaiser owns any of the land in the vicinity.  Checking GBK, Kaiser, and Kaiser Francis via the assessors web site, I get nothing on Turkey Mountain though Kaiser does have quite a bit of real estate around town through his various business interests and trusts.

There are 6 privately-owned parcels in the area to track down.
http://www.riverparks.org/wp-content/uploads/Turkey-Mountain-Area-Ownership.pdf

I would assume that if someone was trying to add to the park, or create a buffer, then outlet mall property would be lower on the list that several of the other parcels.

[Conan71]

This map is from a friend who helped get provisions inserted into the zoning change from Ag to light office/mixed use several years ago on the parcel in question.  That required a green buffer area.  He thinks Kaiser or GKFF may have purchased the Claudia Dyer properties after this was produced.  He's also of the understanding that the Ferris Trust property has a provision that it must remain green space.

[guido911]

I've seen enough. When does the bulldozing of trails start? Ducking, donning Kevlar.

[sauerkraut]

Yeah, I guess the mountain bikers will lose some trails- Glad I'm not a mountain biker.

[Conan71]

Yeah, I guess the mountain bikers will lose some trails- Glad I'm not a mountain biker.

It's also horseback riders, trail runners, and hikers.  More disturbing is this is land the Westside Y has used for horseback riding and nature hikes for about 90 years.  Speaking to one of the Y directors at the district 2 council meeting last night, they are really disappointed and at a loss.  They have tried to buy it twice but could not raise the $3 mil the owners wanted at the time.

[In_Tulsa]

Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.

[sgrizzle]

It's also horseback riders, trail runners, and hikers.  More disturbing is this is land the Westside Y has used for horseback riding and nature hikes for about 90 years.  Speaking to one of the Y directors at the district 2 council meeting last night, they are really disappointed and at a loss.  They have tried to buy it twice but could not raise the $3 mil the owners wanted at the time.

There is the gist. Just like the area behind chandler park used for off-roading, if you aren't willing or capable to come up with the cash for the land, you have to realize that your usage of the land is only temporary.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.

Side note - it's interesting how they are now compelled to put up signs to stop something that was illegal in the first place - without notification!  Amazing the rationalizations that abound that just because people have been doing something, and there is even a path due to the magnitude of the illegal activity, a sign is still necessary!

[Conan71]

Looks like they have done it now. I heard that the owners of the property are now in the process of putting up no trespassing signs all along their property. They are also looking to hire off-duty police officers to enforce. We will see what happens.

Have you heard this or seen it?  We were up there last night at the south end of the property near the for sale sign and there were none.

[guido911]

Have you heard this or seen it?  We were up there last night at the south end of the property near the for sale sign and there were none.

You weren't trespassing, were you?   

Watching this play out has been interesting to say the least. There is a potential business development of private property with huge financial implications for this region, and persons without any property ownership injecting themselves into the process. To me this is not like home owners having to deal with businesses moving in, like what happened to you know who and 101st and Memorial. This is self-interested groups without any financial stake vs. private property rights. The "x" factor being some of these self-interested sorts wanting government to do something about it.

[TeeDub]

There is a potential business development of private property with huge financial implications for this region, and persons without any property ownership injecting themselves into the process.

It's just the ever-present NIMBY'ers.   People complained about the Target development in BA, they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially) they complained about the Macy's distribution center.   It doesn't matter, it is just people's nature to whine and grumble about change.   

I am still trying to figure out why they haven't gotten together and bought the land as a trust or something...   Probably because they like using other people's stuff for free and are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is.

[Townsend]

they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially)

Still complaining it wasn't designed to be walkable.  Keep some hills, make it pretty.

I go to Sam's and leave.  Once Costco's in, I'll prob stop Sam's as well.

[Conan71]

It's just the ever-present NIMBY'ers.   People complained about the Target development in BA, they complained about the Tulsa Hills (initially) they complained about the Macy's distribution center.   It doesn't matter, it is just people's nature to whine and grumble about change.  

I am still trying to figure out why they haven't gotten together and bought the land as a trust or something...   Probably because they like using other people's stuff for free and are too cheap to put their money where their mouth is.

Uh no.  Your characterization really makes me bristle.  This is actually something which is trying to be pulled together as we speak.  Trying to rope together enough people to raise $3+ million doesn't happen over night.  One of the directors of the Tulsa area YMCA explained to me they tried to buy it in 2008 and again in 2010.  They simply could not raise the funds.  As far as your assumption trail users are freeloaders, most trail users I've spoken with would have absolutely no problem with a use fee on this land, or coming up with a long-term solution which would generate income for the property owners.  A number of rocks are being turned over right now looking for a way to head this off and buy the property.  This deal with Simon is nowhere near completed.  I suspect some sort of contract has been signed, but a developer like Simon won't close the deal until they know they have every zoning hurdle cleared.  They are nowhere near clearing any hurdles as of yet.

I understand the whole private property issue and the rights of the property owner.  Certainly, if it gets killed in zoning or council hearings, the owners can erect a fence out of spite and seal off the property from further use.  That's their prerogative.  The reason this is even privately-owned land seems to be complete ignorance of the property history, near as I can tell.  I honestly don't understand why the Y never attempted to buy this before the current partnership bought this, somewhere around 2000.  They could have picked it up much cheaper.

Now here's why this is the wrong place for this outlet mall, Tee Dub and Guido:

-Turkey Mountain is one of the last pristine wilderness areas in the Tulsa area.  It is a complex eco-system and rare recreational area to have within a city's limits.  Imagine erecting an outlet mall in New York's Central Park.  This has been dubbed "Tulsa's Central Park".

-The site will require a massive infrastructure overhaul.  Who foots the bill for the millions of dollars this will require to support the private developers for the replacement of the 61st street bridge and overhauling the whole US 75 61st St. interchange?  That's right, the tax payer.  Of course, anything else built to the south or SW of this site would still require a massive infrastructure upgrade.  Sooo, Guido, government gets involved either way.  It's much costlier to you, the taxpayer, if this project goes through in infrastructure costs and other greenmail.

-This could create issues for the Mooser Creek watershed which has been carefully preserved.  The YMCA has expressed concerns that development "uphill" from the Y could have a negative impact on storm water run-off onto their property.

-Elwood north from 71st to it's merge with 61st St. is one of the more dangerous stretches of road in Tulsa county.  Additional traffic on this road would necessarily require a very expensive overhaul of this road.  There is also a neighborhood on the west side of Elwood which would be impacted by higher traffic count on Elwood.  They already say they are frustrated with all the traffic at Turkey Mountain on the weekends.

-There are sufficient parcels of privately-owned land off the SW corner of this interchange as well as directly south of the proposed site.  There is also a parcel on the NW corner of 71st & Elwood.  This stretch of road has already been improved to handle the additional traffic Tulsa Hills created.

-As to the trespassing issue: The INCOG maps and RPA maps of the Turkey Mountain Wilderness have shown the area inclusive of this parcel as being within the boundaries of the "park".  Most users, until now, had assumed this was city or county-owned property, or owned by the YMCA because of this.  When I went to the day camp at the Y in the 1970's, we rode horses and hiked through this property, my personal assumption always being this was Y or public property.  To my knowledge no one has ever discouraged use of this land.  As another aside, trail users have maintained and regularly hauled out trailer loads of illegally dumped trash from this parcel as well as the ones adjacent to it.  My point to this is trail users have tried to be good stewards of the land, regardless of ownership and have not been ungrateful freeloaders.

-I further understand that remaining private properties to the east of this plot are held in trust with provisions for them to remain green space.  If the mall happens here, it's not the end of the world, but it would be a shame to take out 60 acres of pristine wilderness when there's property in the immediate vicinity more suitable for development.  

I realize west Tulsa can use the up-tick in commerce. I appreciate the county and city could benefit from increasing the sales tax base as developments like this attract transient sales tax from all over the country and aren't simply cannibalizing sales tax dollars from other collection points in the city.

To people who have never hiked, biked, or ridden a horse on this land, I can understand why preservation of this as an urban wilderness seems like complete folly.  As a user of this land on and off for 40 years, I have a different view of the real "value" of this property in being maintained as wilderness and I'm not afraid to contribute in any way possible to keep it that way.