Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[ZYX]

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tulsa-urban-wilderness-coalition-claims-outlet-mall-could-harm-turkey-mtn-wildlife-pollute-water

Please consider signing the petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/keep-turkey-mountain-green/

[heironymouspasparagus]

I heard that Kaiser was buying the site and gonna keep it the way it is...??   Anyone else hear that?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Well, looking at the 2 news site, it doesn't sound like it....

[In_Tulsa]

I am in the process of getting a petition together for people who are in support of the outlet mall at this location. So far we have over 300 registered Tulsa county voter signatures. I do believe we will get several thousand. I'm happily surprised at how many people are for the outlet mall in this area.

[ZYX]

With all due respect, why would anyone argue for an outlet mall in this location?

[sgrizzle]

With all due respect, why would anyone argue for an outlet mall in this location?

1. It's private property whose owner wants it to be commercially developed
2. It is at the intersection of two major highways
3. It is at the intersection of the probably the busiest two major "out of towner" highways
4. No major residential developments or parks within at least 1/4 mile

[ZYX]

The whole private property thing is fine as long as

1. No public money is used to help finance the mall.
2. 61st St/Elwood isn't widened (therefore encroaching upon Turkey Mountain).

As far as it being at the intersection of two major "out of towner" highways, who really just happens to see an outlet mall on the side of the road and then goes to shop there?

I'm perfectly fine with an outlet mall being built, but not in an area that degrades one of our most attractive assets. I still don't understand why someone, who is not affiliated with the project, would promote this location over another.

[In_Tulsa]

It's people who live and work in the area. It would add value and quality of life. This petition is so the city will consider giving incentives to build this outlet mall. I am all for turkey mountain. I think this will enhance turkey mountain not take from it.

[ZYX]

I don't live in the immediate area, but I and members of my family do work there, and I do a lot of shopping around there. I guess our opinions on what will add quality of life are different.

[Conan71]

Sorry, I'm going to have to argue the point that quality of life to area residents will improve.

First, the city has no money set aside to improve or widen the stretch of Elwood/61st between 71st and Highway 75.  It is already over-burdened on weekends with people using Turkey Mountain. 

Second, ODOT has no plans to replace the 61st Street bridge for at least eight years.  Has the two lane choke-down at 81st improved the quality of life for west side residents and commuters?  How about the dysfunctional traffic light system on 71st at the north end of Tulsa Hills?

Third, Simon was required to provide a traffic count study for a similar development in a similar sized metro.  By their own estimate, the development would increase hourly traffic counts by 3600 cars.  Can anyone imagine how the intersection of 61st and Hwy 75 processing 60 cars per minute?  Plan on seeing traffic back ups from 61st to the I-44 interchange on Saturdays and Sundays.

Fourth, this development has limited visibility and problematic access from I-44.  There is a reason all three planned developments are slated to be on/near I-44: Interstates are where these are developed because it helps bring in money from people outside the area.  If someone is hustling through Tulsa on their way to Ohio and ready to take an hour break, they might stop, walk around and shop.  Make it difficult to get to your front door and they will keep on driving.  If this mall fails to attract significant shoppers from out of the area, it only scavenges sales tax from other areas of the city.  Highway 75 is not really an "out-of-towner" highway, it's primarily a commuter corridor, much like the Creek Turnpike.

The last two weekends, I have seen cars parked approximately 200 yards into the neighborhood to the west of the main TM parking lot, atop Elwood Hill, and on the proposed property.  There is a larger demand for urban wilderness than we have infrastructure for at the moment.  Add in mall traffic and you can expect accidents and back ups. 

The proposed "buffer zone" on the north and east of this property line will do nothing to keep trash from blowing into the YMCA to the north and land to the east which will be preserved as wilderness.  In other areas where this has been tried, trash is a major issue.

http://mtairy.me/2013/02/06/upper-rock-creek-trash-photo-survey/

A lower impact development as was originally proposed (and what it is currently zoned for) in 2008 would create far less issues and would not be such a shock or nuisance to the surrounding properties.

There are better uses for this land which would still line the pockets of the current land owners.  One would be a second main trailhead with a handicapped-friendly wilderness trail, a community center, and additional parking for trail users. 

More and more, people cite outdoor fitness and recreation opportunities as very important quality of life issues, not shopping malls.  Tulsa has plenty of "upscale shopping" as it is.  Calling anything sold in an outlet mall "upscale" is misleading in the first place.

Be careful what you wish for, this development isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[heironymouspasparagus]

What Conan said....

Repeat daily until the Simon outlet insanity subsides!!

[carltonplace]

It's people who live and work in the area. It would add value and quality of life. This petition is so the city will consider giving incentives to build this outlet mall. I am all for turkey mountain. I think this will enhance turkey mountain not take from it.

I can't belive anyone would think an outlet mall would improve their quality of life except maybe Mama June. Tulsa needs to stop settling for run of the mill thoughtless development for development's sake. We can do better, we can have a better city. We don't need to look like Owasso or Bixby or New Tampa.

[TeeDub]

Third, Simon was required to provide a traffic count study for a similar development in a similar sized metro.  By their own estimate, the development would increase hourly traffic counts by 3600 cars.  Can anyone imagine how the intersection of 61st and Hwy 75 processing 60 cars per minute?  Plan on seeing traffic back ups from 61st to the I-44 interchange on Saturdays and Sundays.

I think you mean 2.5 cars a minute or 150 cars an hour (maybe 5 cars per minute if you figure 12 hours of real traffic per day.)

Fourth, this development has limited visibility and problematic access from I-44.  There is a reason all three planned developments are slated to be on/near I-44: Interstates are where these are developed because it helps bring in money from people outside the area.  If someone is hustling through Tulsa on their way to Ohio and ready to take an hour break, they might stop, walk around and shop.  Make it difficult to get to your front door and they will keep on driving.  If this mall fails to attract significant shoppers from out of the area, it only scavenges sales tax from other areas of the city.  Highway 75 is not really an "out-of-towner" highway, it's primarily a commuter corridor, much like the Creek Turnpike.

I think scavenging sales taxes from Glenpool, Sapulpa, Jenks and the surrounding communities would benefit Tulsa.   Are there ever really malls that get out-of-town/state traffic?

[Conan71]

I think you mean 2.5 cars a minute or 150 cars an hour (maybe 5 cars per minute if you figure 12 hours of real traffic per day.)

I think scavenging sales taxes from Glenpool, Sapulpa, Jenks and the surrounding communities would benefit Tulsa.   Are there ever really malls that get out-of-town/state traffic?

No, that would be about the present traffic count at off-peak hours, not what happens after mall traffic at this location is added in.  Add in additional traffic for all the new development south of this which is still coming.

There's little doubt this will pull in revenue from the suburbs.  However, according to at least one consultant in the industry I've spoken with, the draw for an outlet mall in Tulsa reaches at least two hours which would cover all of NWA.  They are considered tourist destinations which is the draw for cities dependent on sales tax for operating revenue.  But that also points to the site at the Hard Rock being more convenient for those shoppers and offering more of a total tourist destination.  Granted, that does nothing to help the COT with added revenues, but there's plenty of undeveloped sites the city could've gotten behind, like Horizon's proposal near the I-44/244 intersection.

Placing an outlet mall within the city limits of larger cities as this proposes, is actually somewhat unusual in the industry.  For the most part, they are built in suburbs.  In Dallas, you have outlet malls at Grand Prairie, Grapevine, and Allen.  In Austin, they have one in Georgetown. Same with LA, Chicago, Atlanta, etc. ad nauseum.

[sgrizzle]

While Conan and my opinions generally don't jive on this subject, I do have to agree that I don't see a quality of life improvement for the surrounding areas. This is about increasing sales tax dollars in the Tulsa city limits. Rarely do any major retail centers improve anything for the neighbors except decrease loneliness.