Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[Conan71]

Thank you Hoss!  I used to be able to post the videos and wasn't sure what had changed.

[patric]

 Like retaining walls.  Nothing like lots and lots of concrete to compliment urban wilderness.  Just wait till the taggers show up.

And taggers love nothing better than walls lit like billboards.    That way they get their message out 24/7.

[LandArchPoke]

If there's ever a time to rally against a project this is it.  Either that or hope the Cherokees are one step ahead of Simon.

Simon has the ultimate say with outlet tenants. They control the market so much nationally they can essentially bully tenants into saying no to the other developments, and in the national retail community they have a reputation for doing this by saying if you want to locate in development A, B, and C then you have to sign a lease at development D too. So I have a bad feeling that unless the City does step up and says no to any public fund for this or that there's not enough out cry from citizens to block this, we will have an outlet mall here and not at the other 2 sites.

On another note, as much money as they are going to spend on grading... you'd think they just build structured parking and reduce the footprint of the development to limit cut/fill. They are trying to cram this site plan they use all over the country on relatively flat sites in the middle of farmland into a very unique site that has many challenges. If they just hired a landscape architecture or urban designer they could come up with something that might actually be worthy of building. They've also done NO public outreach. Kind of development 101 is to engage the public when you're dealing with a potentially controversial site.

The 1 point of entry/exit still blows my mind. As many developments as Simon has done they should know better by now. Points of access is extremely vital to the long-term viability of a retail development. Only way to solve this would be to build a second bridge to connect to Elwood, or to build access roads and extends the on/off ramps from 61st to allow traffic to exit/enter the site that way. However, that's all very expensive and doesn't take into account the need work to be done to 61st street alone (which others have mentioned).

The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's use a local case study... RiverWalk. This is one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.

[SXSW]

The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's us a local case study... RiverWalk. This the one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.

Hopefully enough citizens speak up and the mayor/council doesn't give them a dime.  I'm not convinced they can even make it past TMAPC.

It's pretty amazing how many know about this project and are against it, likely because of social media.  If this was 15 years ago no one would hardly know and only a handful would care.  Now with Turkey Mtn one of the most popular outdoor spots in the city this is a major hot button issue.

[Conan71]

Hopefully enough citizens speak
up and the mayor/council doesn't give them a dime.  I'm not convinced they can even make it past TMAPC.

It's pretty amazing how many know about this project and are against it, likely because of social media.  If this was 15 years ago no one would hardly know and only a handful would care.  Now with Turkey Mtn one of the most popular outdoor spots in the city this is a major hot button issue.

The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 

I'm amazed every weekend how many people I meet up at Turkey Mountain who are here for the day from OKC, Tahlequah, Okmulgee, Bartlesville, NW Arkansas.  My wife mentioned someone visiting family from Florida who heard Turkey Mountain. was a "must see and do."  I've gotten in the habit of riding through the parking lot before or after we ride and seeing what plates are on people's cars.  Saturday, I counted five tags from Texas, my wife caught a couple from Kansas.

Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition is starting a census project with RPA to learn more about who trail users are, where they come from, and how much money they spend in the area when they come to Turkey Mountain.  Should be interesting to see and hopefully open some eyes at the city about what a valuable asset this is.

[Conan71]

Simon has the ultimate say with outlet tenants. They control the market so much nationally they can essentially bully tenants into saying no to the other developments, and in the national retail community they have a reputation for doing this by saying if you want to locate in development A, B, and C then you have to sign a lease at development D too. So I have a bad feeling that unless the City does step up and says no to any public fund for this or that there's not enough out cry from citizens to block this, we will have an outlet mall here and not at the other 2 sites.

On another note, as much money as they are going to spend on grading... you'd think they just build structured parking and reduce the footprint of the development to limit cut/fill. They are trying to cram this site plan they use all over the country on relatively flat sites in the middle of farmland into a very unique site that has many challenges. If they just hired a landscape architecture or urban designer they could come up with something that might actually be worthy of building. They've also done NO public outreach. Kind of development 101 is to engage the public when you're dealing with a potentially controversial site.

The 1 point of entry/exit still blows my mind. As many developments as Simon has done they should know better by now. Points of access is extremely vital to the long-term viability of a retail development. Only way to solve this would be to build a second bridge to connect to Elwood, or to build access roads and extends the on/off ramps from 61st to allow traffic to exit/enter the site that way. However, that's all very expensive and doesn't take into account the need work to be done to 61st street alone (which others have mentioned).

The city needs to think long-term about this development too. How can this site be re-porposed if the outlet mall craze ends (like it has before). What other retailers would lease this site if there's only 1 way in and out. Let's use a local case study... RiverWalk. This is one of the biggest reasons it failed (outside of bad ownership). Trying to get anything outside a few bars/restaurants was impossible due to the lack of connectivity to major streets. There's examples of this type of poor planning and short-sightedness in retail development everywhere! So please let's not give public funding to something like this! If they want to develop this private property then they need to use 100% private funds to improve the infrastructure. If they can't afford that, then guess what... this isn't a viable development site and find one that has the infrastructure in place.

Use the following search term in Google:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=simon+property+group,+anti-trust&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

They've been sued in the past for anti-trust, no idea how successful those have been, but I've heard the exact same thing you have about telling a tenant if they want in a bigger market, they have to sign on in a smaller one they are developing as well.

[AngieB]

The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 

I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/

[ZYX]

The council is full aware how unpopular this project is thanks to people emailing in.  Jeanne Cue (District 2) needs to hear from everyone in her district who is opposed.  If she realizes this is not what people in her district want, she will vote against it and I suspect the council will follow. 

I'm amazed every weekend how many people I meet up at Turkey Mountain who are here for the day from OKC, Tahlequah, Okmulgee, Bartlesville, NW Arkansas.  My wife mentioned someone visiting family from Florida who heard Turkey Mountain. was a "must see and do."  I've gotten in the habit of riding through the parking lot before or after we ride and seeing what plates are on people's cars.  Saturday, I counted five tags from Texas, my wife caught a couple from Kansas.

Tulsa Urban Wilderness Coalition is starting a census project with RPA to learn more about who trail users are, where they come from, and how much money they spend in the area when they come to Turkey Mountain.  Should be interesting to see and hopefully open some eyes at the city about what a valuable asset this is.

I emailed Jeannie Cue, and she was very kind and replied even though I don't live in her district. She expressed doubt that the development would happen without widening 61st. The online petition has 7,200 signatures now, and I know for a fact that there are more who are opposed who have not signed.

I agree with LandArchPoke that given the unpopular nature of the development, the city should not be providing money to help make this development successful. You can't claim that the public should have no say in what you build on your property, and then say that the public should provide money to make your development succesful. The city should deny their TIF request.

[heironymouspasparagus]

If history has shown us anything in this town, county, and state, it is to follow the money.  No amount of signatures or discussions or town halls will overcome the money.  Next election - vote out the ones who paved the way.  Except that doesn't happen either - as demonstrated so graphically by the last election.  Give up.  It is too late.  And we will get to pay for the street improvements.

[Conan71]

I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/

I saw the comment from one resident along the lines of:

"Once we prove to the city there's all this development, they will improve the infrastructure." 

Tulsa has a bad history of not "improving the infrastructure" until 10-20 years after it is needed.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I saw the comment from one resident along the lines of:

"Once we prove to the city there's all this development, they will improve the infrastructure." 

Tulsa has a bad history of not "improving the infrastructure" until 10-20 years after it is needed.

I-44 as classic case in point....they just finished up building the road through town for the traffic of 1987.

[guido911]

I have posted my opposition on our nextdoor.com neighborhood and I'm not finding many in agreement with me. I'm afraid most of the westside is for any development, anywhere, at any cost or risk. That's what happens when an area is so neglected. Desperation. Development for development's sake. :/

I wonder how much of that feeling is a result of what is already in place there. Maybe people think that this is "just one more project" and will not be disruptive.

As for me, most know I have been on both sides of this issue. I want the potential economic growth and private property rights upheld, but I am also not a fan of making it even harder to get to downtown with all the traffic mess and construction. Right now, I am preferring the incentive in having to travel to Branson for their outlet mall. Selfish, I know.

[AngieB]

I wonder how much of that feeling is a result of what is already in place there. Maybe people think that this is "just one more project" and will not be disruptive.

As for me, most know I have been on both sides of this issue. I want the potential economic growth and private property rights upheld, but I am also not a fan of making it even harder to get to downtown with all the traffic mess and construction. Right now, I am preferring the incentive in having to travel to Branson for their outlet mall. Selfish, I know.

I think many Westsiders think all the jobs will be for us. Our property values will increase. It will bring in more business. The Westside will get tax dollars from it. <sigh> If only that were all true... 

[AquaMan]

Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.

[AngieB]

Plus, how many Westsiders are big TM users? From my experience they are working class who have little time for biking, hiking, and exploring. They seem to have little compassion for spandex unless its as undergarments.

Thanks for the stereotype!