Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[Conan71]

Nope, they just aren't ready.  That was apparent at the PRC meeting in February and in the face-to-face meetings they staged that week with area stakeholders.  When they are ready, I'm certain they will have a spectacular plan.  They are the #1 mall developer in the world.  A fact they are very proud of.

The longer this goes, there's a better chance the Cherokees end up winning this lottery.  Too bad the Tulsa ED office (from what I'm hearing) hasn't been supporting the project which made the most sense in the first place: Horizon.  That site also has acres of pad development space for restaurants and hotels.

That is a blighted area in need of an economic boost and would better justify a TIF and it's been identified for at least ten years as one of two spots in the metro with huge retail potential.  The other identified at the same time was where Tulsa Hills sits now.

My understanding is the Tulsa Hills TIF still is not paid out so it makes no real sense to throw another TIF on an area that has more recently benefitted from it.

[rdj]

I'm told by folks that spend a lot of time at City Hall that the Horizon folks have provided a lot of watercolor drawings but no real substance or an ability to move forward.  That could be due to the city staff's desire to move forward with Simon, could be they know that if Simon wants Tulsa they'll get it or could be they don't have their ducks in a row either and are just biding time.

My prediction is the Cherokee's do retail of some sorts at their location.  They can afford to build whatever they want and charge below market rents to gain occupancy if needed.  That area is seeing quite a bit of retail development to the east, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them do non-outlet retail.

My other prediction is if an outlet mall is built it will be by Simon and will be in the HWY 75 corridor.  They have some of the best folks in town representing them so they'll figure out a way to get it done if they're willing to slog thru the muddy process.

[Conan71]

I'm told by folks that spend a lot of time at City Hall that the Horizon folks have provided a lot of watercolor drawings but no real substance or an ability to move forward.  That could be due to the city staff's desire to move forward with Simon, could be they know that if Simon wants Tulsa they'll get it or could be they don't have their ducks in a row either and are just biding time.

My prediction is the Cherokee's do retail of some sorts at their location.  They can afford to build whatever they want and charge below market rents to gain occupancy if needed.  That area is seeing quite a bit of retail development to the east, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them do non-outlet retail.

My other prediction is if an outlet mall is built it will be by Simon and will be in the HWY 75 corridor.  They have some of the best folks in town representing them so they'll figure out a way to get it done if they're willing to slog thru the muddy process.

Keep in mind, Simon has found themselves having to partner with Tanger and Woodmont (who is developing the Cherokee site) in other markets.  They don't always win.  One thing the folks from Simon let slip in one of their face-to-face meetings last month is that the Cherokees have quite a bit more cash at their disposal and they already have a $20 million TIF (or some other incentive) from the city of Catoosa.  They also have no idea how many leases and LOI's the Cherokees have signed to date.  That, alone, is the real wildcard.

Simon has a few challenges ahead.  There's still a right of way from ODOT's functional plans which runs right through the middle of their property that no one from ODOT or INCOG has ruled in or out as of yet.  Plus you have to convince 5 out of the nine city councilors a controversial project like this should go forward, then you have to convince the council to approve a TIF.  Simon has said they will not develop without bridge improvements.  They also said they cannot afford to do the bridge improvements without a TIF.

There's been speculation as well that Simon may be trying to smoke Horizon out to help protect Woodland and they could end up approaching Woodmont to partner up with them.

If I were to base my opinion purely on ability to lease due to many relationships with retailers, Simon wins, hands down.  There's a whole lot of other factors working against them, including time and competition.

[LandArchPoke]

My understanding is the Tulsa Hills TIF still is not paid out so it makes no real sense to throw another TIF on an area that has more recently benefitted from it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the TIF for Tulsa Hills has to be extended. Everyone always just raves how well Tulsa Hills has done. Well if you look at the TIF amount ($160 million), and how much real estate has actually been built - each sq. ft. of development was subsidized approximately $250 per square foot. That ENTIRE area brings in somewhere around $17 million in property and sales taxes (I think this is what was in the Tulsa World article a week or so ago).

With that kind of advantage there is no wonder the development is so successful. The reason it cost so much was the site selection. They had to chop the top half of several hills off (ironic given the name). We could have built 2 Tulsa Hills somewhere else in Tulsa with that same amount of money. When Tulsa Hills sold from the original developer to the REIT that now owns it, the total value was only $59 million.

In terms of getting the most return on TIF money, hands down it is not Simon. Why not give East Tulsa $160 million to spend on economic development and I think you'd see the same thing that's happened around Tulsa Hills. Let's not double down on poor site selection that requires enormous amounts of money to upgrade infrastructure because of terrain issues.

[guido911]

I wish the anti-outlet mall folks would stay focused on a message. When I read about some beetle or ODOT ROW, or even conspiratorial stuff, it comes off like grasping at straws, or this:



Just me of course. 

[guido911]

Troll level to 12...  

Yeah. You lend credence to two damned anti-police buffoons and you can's deal with the fall out.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Troll level to 12...  

Notice how there are at least a couple of them that never offer anything but 'troll'...

No thoughtful insight or well thought out commentary.  Never an opinion or direct answer to specific questions.  And then fall back on the time proven technique of name calling as catchy comeback!

[guido911]

Notice how there are at least a couple of them that never offer anything but 'troll'...

In this case it was the equivalent of farting and leaving the room.

[Conan71]

I wouldn't be surprised if the TIF for Tulsa Hills has to be extended. Everyone always just raves how well Tulsa Hills has done. Well if you look at the TIF amount ($160 million), and how much real estate has actually been built - each sq. ft. of development was subsidized approximately $250 per square foot. That ENTIRE area brings in somewhere around $17 million in property and sales taxes (I think this is what was in the Tulsa World article a week or so ago).

With that kind of advantage there is no wonder the development is so successful. The reason it cost so much was the site selection. They had to chop the top half of several hills off (ironic given the name). We could have built 2 Tulsa Hills somewhere else in Tulsa with that same amount of money. When Tulsa Hills sold from the original developer to the REIT that now owns it, the total value was only $59 million.

In terms of getting the most return on TIF money, hands down it is not Simon. Why not give East Tulsa $160 million to spend on economic development and I think you'd see the same thing that's happened around Tulsa Hills. Let's not double down on poor site selection that requires enormous amounts of money to upgrade infrastructure because of terrain issues.

TIF was between $13 to $16 million, depending on who you listen to. 

[Conan71]

I wish the anti-outlet mall folks would stay focused on a message. When I read about some beetle or ODOT ROW, or even conspiratorial stuff, it comes off like grasping at straws, or this:



Just me of course. 

I realize many of your posts are sarcastic but my reply is to illustrate there are many reasons why a mall here is a really bad idea.  The forum tonight identified various aspects as to why this is a bad idea and how it really flies in the face of every single tax-payer paid study which spells out why this is such a bad idea.

We have spent millions over the years identifying ways to attract and retain the right demographic in Tulsa.  We have identified the kinds of developments which would grant us the appearance of a first tier city.  We have paid consultants millions to tell us what would make Tulsa the best place to live.

We consistently ignore all the advice our tax money has paid for.  This is yet one more example of ignoring that advice.

[guido911]

We have spent millions over the years identifying ways to attract and retain the right demographic in Tulsa.  We have identified the kinds of developments which would grant us the appearance of a first tier city.  We have paid consultants millions to tell us what would make Tulsa the best place to live.

The "right demographic"? That's sounds a tad bit elitist. And who is that right demographic incidentally? More hikers and cyclists? Or fewer people likely to spend money on retail? If those are the choices, I will take the spenders. And I would like to know who these consultants are who think we need more riding trails over more economic activity.

You have come a long way from what might have been your first post on this subject:

It looks like the eastern border of the mall abuts a section we refer to as pipeline (there's a pipeliner road which runs north to south).  It affects lesser used expert trails for the most part as well as some intermediate and easier trails which connect the Westside Y to the area where the mall will be.  There's still plenty of trail access from the Y to the rest of the trail system.  Just a wild guess, but probably less than 20% of the people who use the Turkey Mountain/YMCA trail system utilize this particular area.

[Conan71]

The "right demographic"? That's sounds a tad bit elitist. And who is that right demographic incidentally? More hikers and cyclists? Or fewer people likely to spend money on retail? If those are the choices, I will take the spenders. And I would like to know who these consultants are who think we need more riding trails over more economic activity.

You have come a long way from what might have been your first post on this subject:

It's amazing how your paradigms can shift when you make an honest effort to investigate and explore all sides of an issue.

"The right demographic" is not a foreign concept to this forum.  I've posted here now for nine years and I think you've been here longer than I have, it crops up in nearly every development-related thread.  It's no secret YP's are coveted by every single metro area in the U.S.  When we speak of innovative or archaic development principles, the discussion eventually comes around to: "Will it help us attract and retain young professionals?"

Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I've mis-stated anything thus far.

If you would have come to TulsaNow's forum last month or even to the forum tonight, you'd have heard about Jack Blair's (Tulsa City Council policy guru) quality of life study which compared Tulsa to 20 peer cities.  In that report and his presentation at the TN forum last month, he identified 25-34 YP's as being "the desired demographic." every city is clamoring for.  Hell, even modernized beer laws in the TN forum last night were cited as yet another quality of life issue with YP's being an important demographic.

Guess what?  Green space, smart planning, and more pedestrian-friendly development is what is attractive to them.  

They are decidedly still in the acquisition phase of life, are learning to become big earners while they plant roots, and are huge consumers and contributors to the fabric of cities.

Don't take my word for it, read the report instead of complaining that you think this is entirely based on people like me who are whining because we want to crap on someone else's personal enrichment out of pure spite and selfishness.  

At the very least, please take the time to get out and scout about these projects and proposed projects before you pass judgement on other people's passion for what does and does not qualify as quality and desired development in this city.

And finally, if you don't like the conclusions of these reports and studies (examples would be: recent QOL report, PlaniTulsa, any various small area plans, comprehensive plans, Mooser Creek Greenway Study, INCOG Arkansas River Master Plan, etc. ad nauseum) you have paid for, as a tax payer, please contact your city councilor and let them know you are tired of them wasting your tax dollars on reports for which we never follow their conclusions.

[LandArchPoke]

TIF was between $13 to $16 million, depending on who you listen to. 

This Tulsa World article is a bit confusing.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/restaurants-retail-and-renewal-some-years-later-tax-increment-finance/article_92bc0724-90ee-578b-9868-4ba14c783be7.html

7. Tulsa Hills (2006-2021)
Projected: $170,446,000
Actual: $11,257,829 (ad valorem); $14,339,164 (sales tax)

The $170 million I guess is what is projected to be collected over the life of the TIF for Tulsa Hills. So only $13 - $16 million was given? If that's the case, the TIF should already be paid off, considering $25 million has been collected.

[guido911]

At the very least, please take the time to get out and scout about these projects and proposed projects before you pass judgement on other people's passion for what does and does not qualify as quality and desired development in this city.

I was on the fence on this issue, not really giving a crap because I do not live anywhere close to TM, and I rarely head over that way. But the more I read about this organized effort to interfere with property rights the more I am inclined to take the position-put your money where your mouth is and buy the property. That way people will actually have skin in the game and not have to be bothered with my "passing judgment" on their passion.

And another thing, I do not like the very real litigation possibility that cynical has repeatedly told (warned?) us about. People in this forum complain about how much money Okie's passions over an issue wind up costing the taxpayers in lawsuits. Who is going to pay for that mess if it comes?

[guido911]

I am going to say this, which is what I communicated on Facebook last night. I am very proud that people that I know in this forum, and others are actually involved in this process. Whether they are right or not, you have to tip the hat. It is more than keyboard commando-ing a position from a computer which is what I am doing.