Simon Outlet Mall 61st & Hwy 75

[BKDotCom]

Uhh.....no it wouldn't.

I think they meant the other north

[AquaMan]

Excellent!!


Back in the 70's, the American Theater Company here in town had the Joyce Martel show and one of the songs - I think it was called "Southern Hills" - pointed out just what you are talking about for south Tulsa, using Southern Hills as the focal point, but it also applied to the rest of suburbia.  This phenomenon goes back a long, long time! 

We don't seem able to break the cycle for whatever reason.  We live in the most beautiful part of the state - northeast Oklahoma.  We have a lot of the 'texture' and feel of some of the Ozarks - in town and around the area - without the elevation.  We have massive water related recreational opportunities in the area.  We have a great trails system but could use more camping possibilities both in/near town and surrounding.  Maybe a "significant" walking/biking/hiking/fishing park every square mile or two throughout the city as a neighborhood focal point?

We need the Martels now more than ever. This city needs a sense of humor.

[heironymouspasparagus]

We need the Martels now more than ever. This city needs a sense of humor.

The city didn't have much of a sense of humor then, either... American Theater Company was at best considered kind of a harmless "lunatic fringe" group - at worst, subversives!  They were great!!   Still are....  They didn't make any really close friends with Joyce Martel in the Powers-that-be structure of Tulsa.  Did receive begrudging support from that structure just so they wouldn't appear to be too petty.

I remember one of the shows that was on a roof downtown - can't remember which one - IIRC it was a Martel show.  Clayton Vaughn the newscaster was in the audience a couple rows in front of us.  During the show, there was a "cannon" set off that absolutely blasted downtown, echoing through the walls of the buildings.  Pretty cool.  My soon to be born daughter was still 'cooking' at about 8 months (mid 70's) - she jumped very strongly and didn't calm down for a quite a while....

[cannon_fodder]

This isn't a coherent post. I've been working on trial prep all weekend. So my brain is fried. This is merely a free writing exercise. . .

I have let this issue percolate far too long.

Percolate? You were commenting on this before it even had it's own thread! When the outlet mall had its own thread started, you commented in it an hour later.

I wanted to not care about it, but my gosh, so many "creative" ways people have gone to run down an investment group has just maxed me out.

Why do you care about it? You've stated that you don't go to outlet malls. You don't go to Turkey Mountain. But hot-damn, citizens using due process to influence city leaders against a foreign corporation - hell no! How dare you citizens think you have a voice in government. When "investment group" demands something from government, they better give in!

...away from congestion (like Promenade or Woodland Hills has).

Please go to Tulsa Hills sometime. That area is usually worse than 41st and Yale.

I also thought there would be jobs, a place for people to buy things perhaps less expensively, and an attraction for people throughout northeast Oklahoma to come and spend money both there and other businesses.

Jobs!  JOBS!  Damn it, do you hear me, JOBS! Sure, most will be minimum wage and people that work there will be eligible for welfare and food stamps, but JOBS! Of course, if the outlet mall went in anywhere else the same jobs would be provided, but jobs! Also, yeah yeah, an outlet mall would likely be a net loss to the economy as items manufactured to be crap are marked up 300% and the profits filtered out of Tulsa, but JOBS!

An outlet mall isn't special. You can get the Nike outlet crap in Branson, OKC, Little Rock, Lake of the Ozarks, Bentonville... I imagine Coach and Michael Kors have similar locations. The days of an "Outlet Mall" being a real tourist draw are long since dead. This is like Tulsa getting a Hard Rock Casino or a Jimmy Buffet... the brand has been diluted.

But to some, Tulsa just can't have that. That piece of private property is just supposed to sit in its current state I guess, not because it is in the best interest of the owners but because its in the best interest of the non-owners.

At least you seem to understand the concept of "best interest," though the term is actually "best use." It has been discussed ad naseum around here. In fact, it is largely what Tulsa Now is all about. We have "plans" and set up "zoning" to put those "plans" into action. Sometimes people want a variance on those plans - and when they do they have to request a variance, ask for public input, and then seek leave for their change. The municipality has broad discretion to deny any such change - including if the community simply doesn't support it.

That's called representative government. Couple that with smart development and we may have cities that are not massively subsidized urban sprawl, pretend "exclusive" subdivisions, and gated communities. There's a reason Tulsa continues to sprawl, continues to bring in more revenue, and continues to be broke. Sprawl is very expensive.

Which brings me to another point:

THEY WANT HANDOUTS. Infrastructure is expensive. WE are to loan them the money, interest free, on the promise that the tax money they will owe us can be used to pay for the improvements. That's like someone offering to let me stay at their house for free, if I promise to build them a house first. Oh, and when the house needs a new roof - I pay for that too.

Look - tax revenue is important. But we keep getting MORE and MORE tax revenue and we keep finding ourselves in a hole. Adding more TIF sponsored retail sprawl isn't solving the problem.

Jobs are important, at all levels. But not at the price they are asking. These jobs added anywhere do the same thing. If Simon doesn't do it, someone else will. They want the market, they want the shoppers. They want the earnings.

Is anyone in this forum looking to bring this sort of economic activity to Tulsa? If so, let us know about it. Because I would love to know if they are being put through the wringer as well by special interest groups.

If you loan me $60-70mil, interest free, I promise to to risk 0.3% of my net assets towards creating as many jobs as possible and paying as much in tax money as I can. I will write you the check for the entire investment, to put in escrow, tomorrow. Millions for giant corporations and insiders, not a penny for small businesses or the infrastructure they depend on (including education)!

And finally - the "neighbor" of this development is a public park, a YMCA, and a watershed. Those neighbors have rights. A 6 story wall would not be tolerated by any neighbor. As a neighbor of a public park, they answer to the park using community (those would be the worthless free loaders, aka taxpayers and citizens, you keep talking about). Just like "private property" owners can't run liquor stores or whorehouses wherever they please - you can't slap an outlet mall wherever you like.

Deny the mall. Buy the property. The City is a better place and the speculator gets paid (by the way, when you buy real estate for speculation, and your plan relies on getting the zoning changed and utilizing land that City maps label as parkland... you are taking a risk. Hence, why it is called land speculation).

[heironymouspasparagus]

This isn't a coherent post. I've been working on trial prep all weekend. So my brain is fried. This is merely a free writing exercise. . .


Deny the mall. Buy the property. The City is a better place and the speculator gets paid (by the way, when you buy real estate for speculation, and your plan relies on getting the zoning changed and utilizing land that City maps label as parkland... you are taking a risk. Hence, why it is called land speculation).

Plenty coherent!!


Land speculation....hmm...where have we heard about that ad nauseum??  Oh, yeah - when Billy Bob and Hillary tried to do a land investment thing a few years ago - the RWRE STILL hasn't let go of it!  What is this now...over 20 years or so??  And yet, when a large multi-national corporation does it...well, that's deserving of government subsidies!!

Well, if one can consider Canada and Puerto Rico as "mult-national"...

[Conan71]

Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

[AngieB]

Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

I hope and pray you are right!!

[carltonplace]

Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

The public input meeting has been pushed 30 days as well.

[rdj]

Great post, CF!

As per the Tulsa World, Simon has now requested their zoning application be heard on June 17.

Based on where their competitors stand, I suspect this will never happen.

Not in this location.

I'm still hearing that Horizon isn't close at all to doing anything.  It is the Cherokee based mall where this retail will go...if it goes anywhere.  With layoffs and continued depression in the energy market the Tulsa retail market on the surface isn't looking so hot.

[AngieB]

The public input meeting has been pushed 30 days as well.

What public input meeting?

[Conan71]

What public input meeting?

That should be the TMAPC meeting on June 17 where they will accept public comment.  This would now mean the Council would not hear this until mid-July.  If the rumors on Cherokee ground breaking in mid-April are true, this would put Simon at least three months behind, probably further.

MC is still planning to attend the April 15 one, just to make sure "they suddenly got their smile together."  It's the old "Trust but verify" thing.

[AngieB]

That should be the TMAPC meeting on June 17 where they will accept public comment.  This would now mean the Council would not hear this until mid-July.  If the rumors on Cherokee ground breaking in mid-April are true, this would put Simon at least three months behind, probably further.

MC is still planning to attend the April 15 one, just to make sure "they suddenly got their smile together."  It's the old "Trust but verify" thing.

I thought he meant some *other* meeting. Yes, it was pushed 30 days, now it's 90 days from the original March date. Good idea to show up on April 15.

[PonderInc]

It seems like a lot of contentious zoning applications follow a similar pattern: 1)The developers will ask for multiple postponements. This helps disrupt the opposition because average citizens have day jobs, and we can only miss work to attend day meetings so many times. 2) Schedule applications to come before the TMAPC in August, when most people are taking their summer vacations or racing around helping their kids get ready for school. This is my pet conspiracy theory. I have no scientific proof, but I've seen it deployed to minimize opposition on several bad PUDs / PUD amendments.

[AngieB]

It seems like a lot of contentious zoning applications follow a similar pattern: 1)The developers will ask for multiple postponements. This helps disrupt the opposition because average citizens have day jobs, and we can only miss work to attend day meetings so many times. 2) Schedule applications to come before the TMAPC in August, when most people are taking their summer vacations or racing around helping their kids get ready for school. This is my pet conspiracy theory. I have no scientific proof, but I've seen it deployed to minimize opposition on several bad PUDs / PUD amendments.

If that is their plan, they are underestimating those involved with the opposition.

[PonderInc]

Was anyone else confused by the TW article about the Simon outlet mall?  It sounds like they could go ahead and build their outlet mall on the proposed site under current zoning, except that their proposal exceeds the max building height allowed.

The current zoning allows 65' maximum building height, and Simon wants 85'.  Is it just me, or is that pretty ridiculous for an outlet mall?  Are they wanting to include a multi-story hotel on the property, too?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/current-zoning-allows-for-development-larger-than-proposed-mall-near/article_a801328c-13d5-5778-b378-24a227e0948f.html

By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
The proposed outlet mall near Turkey Mountain would be smaller than what is currently allowed under the property's existing zoning, according to Planning Commission records.

Simon Property Group has proposed building Tulsa Premium Outlets on the northeast corner of U.S. 75 and 61st Street. The company's zoning application to the Planning Commission requests 900,000 square feet of floor area for the property but the mall itself would include only 350,000 square feet of floor area.

The City Council in 2008 approved zoning for 37.3 acres of mixed-use development that would allow for approximately 900,000 square feet of floor area. Approximately 300,000 square feet of floor area would be allowed on an adjacent 10.9-acre lot zoned commercial and office.

The proposed outlet mall and the zoning currently approved for the site would cover the same 48.2 acres with an identical 13.3-acre buffer along the north and east property boundaries.

The buffer was the result of negotiations between the Westside YMCA and the property owner when the existing zoning for the 51 acres was approved in 2008.

Even with the buffer zone, the development site and the YMCA property to the north is separated by only 203 feet.

One significant difference between the proposed outlet mall and the existing approved uses is the maximum building height allowed.

Simon has requested a maximum height of 85 feet; the current zoning allows a maximum height of 65 feet.
Simon has stated it plans to build a tiered, natural buffer that would blend into the wilderness setting.
The YMCA of Greater Tulsa board of directors, however, remains skeptical of the proposal and has said it would not support the project unless certain demands are met.

They include reducing the maximum allowed building height from 85 feet to 35 feet and eliminating all views of the mall from anywhere on the YMCA property.

Simon's application proposes the construction of a mall only, though other uses would be allowed. The existing zoning would allow hotels, multi-family structures, retail stores, offices and warehouses.

Simon recently requested a second continuance of its hearing before the Planning Commission. The hearing was originally scheduled for March 18, but the developer asked that it be rescheduled to April 15.

The latest request, which must be approved by the Planning Commission, seeks to have the hearing moved to June 17.

The proposed mall has drawn strong criticism from advocates for Turkey Mountain, who argue that the project would damage the popular wilderness area.

Supporters of the proposal say it would provide quality shopping and increase the city's sales-tax base.

The development proposal approved by the City Council in 2008 was never constructed. Zoning designation remains with the property, not the applicant.

Simon did not respond to an email seeking comment.