Downtown Vagrancy - On the rise?

[heironymouspasparagus]

They are now called Obamaville.

Naw...still Hooverville's...it was mostly during Bush's time when those increases occurred - from 2000 to 2011.  8/11 th's of it.

[Gold]

Thank you, that does make sense.

I noticed on Sunday that the park across the street from your store is now empty...and generally downtown seemed to have cleared and we were back to the regular set of homeless and grifters.

You must have missed them.  They leave when the police come and gradually drift back.  I work across the street, was there all day Sunday (8:30 am to 6 pm), and they were there most of the day.  There are also some scary people.  There are some others who clearly need help.  Something very strange is going on and I believe the city, or our citizens, need to do something soon.

The main question I have is why they keep coming back.  KOTV's story suggested water and shade.  That may be part of it, but I don't think that's why the really scary folks show up.  No one goes near the fountains anymore. 

My guess would be drugs.  There are a couple of guys that people come to visit.  It's not always the same guy, but it's the same visitors coming to see the guy.  There are a couple of bald guys who don't wear shirts that often appear high -- one certainly was when I took off Sunday night, as he stumbled through the intersection at 6th and Main.  My favorite is a guy who looks like a brunette Seth Rogen who sometimes pushes a stroller, but not with children.

The police seem to have limited their involvement to running them off.  Today, three cars pulled up about 4 pm.  One guy walked up and they arrested him.  If they had paid attention, there were a couple of guys, perhaps just out of their line of sight, who were handing out something.  The vagrants moved around the corner of the adjacent building (which would appear to have been trespassing), but the police didn't seem to care and seemed happy to have some kid in custody who handed himself over.  The police talk to a kid with an afro for awhile, but then moved on.  That same kid talked to the mainstays who came back about 15 minutes after the police left.  One guy was over by the sign near the stage, handing out his wares.  He also left a pile of trash.

I can't emphasize enough how dangerous this group appears.  They aren't your usual desperate panhandlers.  They are often aggressive.  They will argue with you.  They often seem high.  They bring random weird people with them.  I'm really worried about what happens when one of them brings a gun.

It seems like the efforts have been very ineffective thus far.  These guys keep coming back.  It wouldn't be hard to put up some video cameras on the neighboring buildings and watch this.  Maybe put a tail on the leaders.  Or go after these guys for serial littering.  DO SOMETHING.  I don't want to get close, but my guess is that it's a drug thing. Why else would you always go back to the same point where the police will always come back in a couple of hours?

Another idea would be to arrange for people to hang out in the park and take all the benches so these guys have nowhere to sit.  That may seem crazy, but I think it may be more effective than waiting on the police to do something.  At the very least, it may create the impression that people use the park and maybe they should leave the area.

The press coverage on this issue has been underwhelming.  The panhandlers have been increasingly worse at least since the first of the year.  There were some incidents at 5th and Main when the fountain was under construction.  TPD had a car there the next couple of days and that ran them off.  But they were back soon after.  At one point, we saw the building next to ours broken into.  We called the police and they didn't show up for a long time.

Several weeks back there was an article in the paper about a meeting where the police tried to tell the crowd that downtown was safer statistically.  THat may be true, but I believe there is a great deal of unreported crime.  And if we want to develop our central business district, and if we want visitors (much less life long Tulsans) to feel safe, we have to get serious about this.   This is a bad deal and makes a park that we invested a great deal of time and public money in worthless, if not an actual crime den.  I remember when that park was a parking lot.  I know it's gauche on here, but in hindsight, maybe things were better when that was a parking lot and not an attractive nuisance for dangerous crime.  Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

You must have missed them.  They leave when the police come and gradually drift back.  I work across the street, was there all day Sunday (8:30 am to 6 pm), and they were there most of the day.  There are also some scary people.  There are some others who clearly need help.  Something very strange is going on and I believe the city, or our citizens, need to do something soon.

The main question I have is why they keep coming back.  KOTV's story suggested water and shade.  That may be part of it, but I don't think that's why the really scary folks show up.  No one goes near the fountains anymore. 

My guess would be drugs.  There are a couple of guys that people come to visit.  It's not always the same guy, but it's the same visitors coming to see the guy.  There are a couple of bald guys who don't wear shirts that often appear high -- one certainly was when I took off Sunday night, as he stumbled through the intersection at 6th and Main.  My favorite is a guy who looks like a brunette Seth Rogen who sometimes pushes a stroller, but not with children.

The police seem to have limited their involvement to running them off.  Today, three cars pulled up about 4 pm.  One guy walked up and they arrested him.  If they had paid attention, there were a couple of guys, perhaps just out of their line of sight, who were handing out something.  The vagrants moved around the corner of the adjacent building (which would appear to have been trespassing), but the police didn't seem to care and seemed happy to have some kid in custody who handed himself over.  The police talk to a kid with an afro for awhile, but then moved on.  That same kid talked to the mainstays who came back about 15 minutes after the police left.  One guy was over by the sign near the stage, handing out his wares.  He also left a pile of trash.

I can't emphasize enough how dangerous this group appears.  They aren't your usual desperate panhandlers.  They are often aggressive.  They will argue with you.  They often seem high.  They bring random weird people with them.  I'm really worried about what happens when one of them brings a gun.

It seems like the efforts have been very ineffective thus far.  These guys keep coming back.  It wouldn't be hard to put up some video cameras on the neighboring buildings and watch this.  Maybe put a tail on the leaders.  Or go after these guys for serial littering.  DO SOMETHING.  I don't want to get close, but my guess is that it's a drug thing. Why else would you always go back to the same point where the police will always come back in a couple of hours?

Another idea would be to arrange for people to hang out in the park and take all the benches so these guys have nowhere to sit.  That may seem crazy, but I think it may be more effective than waiting on the police to do something.  At the very least, it may create the impression that people use the park and maybe they should leave the area.

The press coverage on this issue has been underwhelming.  The panhandlers have been increasingly worse at least since the first of the year.  There were some incidents at 5th and Main when the fountain was under construction.  TPD had a car there the next couple of days and that ran them off.  But they were back soon after.  At one point, we saw the building next to ours broken into.  We called the police and they didn't show up for a long time.

Several weeks back there was an article in the paper about a meeting where the police tried to tell the crowd that downtown was safer statistically.  THat may be true, but I believe there is a great deal of unreported crime.  And if we want to develop our central business district, and if we want visitors (much less life long Tulsans) to feel safe, we have to get serious about this.   This is a bad deal and makes a park that we invested a great deal of time and public money in worthless, if not an actual crime den.  I remember when that park was a parking lot.  I know it's gauche on here, but in hindsight, maybe things were better when that was a parking lot and not an attractive nuisance for dangerous crime.  Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys. 

Watch closely and see if it the same group of cops coming around all the time.  Might be a business enterprise of sorts....

[RecycleMichael]

...Or maybe, the police could do their job, get some surveillance, and get rid of the bad guys. 

Welcome to the forum. Nice first post.

[sauerkraut]

Too many homeless, maybe it's time to do "sweeps" and round them up in buses and take 'em away. This is also a safety issue and a crime issue too. Homeless camps are popping up all over the city.

[Gaspar]

Services are expensive. Police contact is also expensive. 
SouthWest "Wanna Get Away" fares are cheap and some come with free drink coupons!

To Chicago (Midway), IL starting at $139 one-way
To Dallas (Love Field), TX starting at $72 one-way
To Denver, CO starting at $121 one-way
To Houston (Hobby), TX starting at $96 one-way
To Las Vegas, NV starting at $168 one-way
To Phoenix, AZ starting at $168 one-way
To St. Louis, MO starting at $94 one-way

We could put together some packages where they get free airfare to Denver and a voucher for The Frosted Leaf

[Gold]

I hear there were some arrests this afternoon.  When I left the office this evening, there were fewer people in the park than normal and for a time, an attorney I know worked on his laptop over there.  (Though for some reason, people keeping searching on the ground and in bushes for something, including the security and the homeless).  They shut the fountain off for some time and that may have helped.  The new security group showed up and cleaned or something.  So today was better than the past several.

I posted some several years back.  You may recall my parodies of the work of one Friendly Bear.  My account got deleted or reset or something.

[SXSW]

Activating parks is the key to keeping any kind of criminal or homeless element out.  Look at Guthrie Green as an example even though it is just a few blocks from the homeless services.  Unfortunately Centennial Green doesn't have very much foot traffic during the day, and few "eyes on the park" except from the office buildings across the street with a blank wall and surface lot on one side and parking garage on the other.  I do see that area eventually building up but until then it will be a quiet park.  Maybe encourage food trucks to park there at lunch.  Denver had a similar problem at one of their downtown parks and the food trucks helped by bringing in office workers that normally don't go there, and causing the drifters to go elsewhere.  Increased security helps as well, and it sounds like that has been happening.

[carltonplace]

I hear there were some arrests this afternoon.  When I left the office this evening, there were fewer people in the park than normal and for a time, an attorney I know worked on his laptop over there.  (Though for some reason, people keeping searching on the ground and in bushes for something, including the security and the homeless).  They shut the fountain off for some time and that may have helped.  The new security group showed up and cleaned or something.  So today was better than the past several.

I posted some several years back.  You may recall my parodies of the work of one Friendly Bear.  My account got deleted or reset or something.

I rode my bike through DT after the Drillers game last night and saw very few people wandering the streets. Centennial Park was empty.

[Gold]

I drove by around that time that night and there were three guys sitting in the back of the park.

"Security" came through a couple of times today and tried to do something.  Fat Seth Rogen was back with the stroller.  The usual suspects were all there after 4 pm. 

TW tonight is saying they also have a curfew in the Plaza of the Americas.

[TheArtist]

The task force has been doing a good job lately at keeping an eye on Centennial Park, especially during daytime hours.  The vagrants will begin to congregate there, but shortly thereafter will begin to leave once the police show up. 

[saintnicster]

City changes curfew at Plaza of the Americas park to curb illicit behavior
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-changes-curfew-at-plaza-of-the-americas-park-to/article_cd0c0d5f-9586-5b42-94f4-84e6a3e9a5f2.html

The Tulsa Parks and Recreation Board has extended the curfew hours for Plaza of the Americas park, the latest step in the city's effort to clean up the downtown property and eliminate illicit behavior there.

The new curfew hours, adopted Tuesday, are 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. The curfew for city parks is typically 11 p.m. to 5 a.m.

"We want people to walk around and utilize downtown without being worried about it," said Parks Department Director Lucy Dolman, who sits on the park board.

The board also agreed to ensure enforcement of ordinances that prohibit or limit vehicle access to the park, selling or handing out food and other items in the park, and going to the bathroom outside in the park.

Part of the problem, officials said, is that Plaza of the Americas — at Seventh Street and Denver Avenue — had become a place where people could go to receive free food. City ordinances do not allow food to be sold or given away at a park without a permit.

Jan Vaughan, Plaza of the Americas Neighborhood Association president, requested the curfew change at Tuesday's park board meeting.

She told board members that from her nearby apartment she has seen people urinating and copulating in the park. Transients have also been known to sleep in the park overnight and make their way into her apartment complex, Vaughan said.

"I think that it is a very good (decision) to try to clean up the park and make it safer for residents," she said of the board's decision.

Tom Baker, manager of the Downtown Coordinating Council, said the curfew change is one of several steps being taken by local agencies to address problems at the park.

"The issue came up a few weeks ago," he said. "We had really unacceptable levels of trash and debris left in the park."

Baker responded by bringing together representatives of the police and parks departments, the mental health community and the Downtown Coordinating Council.

The goal is not simply to clean up the mess, Baker said, but to make sure the park is maintained properly going forward.

Many of the transients in the park are not homeless but instead have come into downtown to prey "on what has been the normal homeless," Baker said.

The city is committed to taking care of its homeless, he added, but plans to hold accountable those who are not homeless and choose to break the law.

Tulsa Police Maj. Travis Yates said he was proud of the collaborative approach used to address the park's problems. Yates, who leads a four-officer team dedicated to downtown issues, said some of the park dwellers had become known for their aggressive panhandling.

"That is the approach we are taking downtown," Yates said of the cooperation among agencies. "I think probably the most important thing about that is that it is going to solve the issue for the long term."

[patric]

City changes curfew at Plaza of the Americas park to curb illicit behavior
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/government/city-changes-curfew-at-plaza-of-the-americas-park-to/article_cd0c0d5f-9586-5b42-94f4-84e6a3e9a5f2.html

That broad-brush approach seems to include banning leaflets, so it wont make it past the first court challenge.  But hey, trampling the constitution in order to appear tough on crime looks good on TV.


...and a 7pm curfew?  Get real.   We're not Ferguson just yet.

[Conan71]

She told board members that from her nearby apartment she has seen people urinating and copulating in the park.

I wonder how long she watched.

[Gaspar]

I wonder how long she watched.

Again, and again, and again, until she told them to stop.