Urban 8

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown, but condos like this keep going up.  A grocer or pharmacy would seem to have some risks but could probably succeed with the current level of apartment dwellers and possibly some business from workers.  But Urban 8 and the tiny Boulder 100 or whatever its called seemed certain to fail.  Who would finance such obvious risks?

There's only 3 tiny condo developments downtown. All of them with serious design problems as discussed above and/or too expensive to be marketable (probably because they were all such small scale). Are you meaning why are there so many apartment developments? There are over a thousand apartment units recently completed or planned whereas only 50 (8+18+24) new condos developed, half of which may never be built.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I don't know how large the 100 Boulder condo units are.  
There aren't many condos within the $100,000 to $350,000 price range inside the IDL other than Central Park, but nine is more than zero.

They are 1000ft2. I was saying they seem smaller than that. Doesn't look like good use of 1000ft2.

There aren't many condos within the $100,000 to $350,000 price range inside the IDL other than Central Park, but nine is more than zero.

I understand. That is why I said I thought they were sold because the MLS postings were all removed. Even then, my above comment still stands: that is a measly 9 poorly-designed small-scale (too small to be economical) studio condos with only 1 unit available on the 2nd floor. Those might technically be "affordable" but I can't imagine many people wanting a 1st floor condo right there with a studio/no balcony/street view for $209k. Those aren't even in a decently walkable area of downtown. If they scaled up, they might be able to offer them at a competitive price.

[Bamboo World]

I don't understand why a grocer or pharmacy hasn't opened downtown...

It's not open 24/7, but there's a Walgreen's on South Houston.

[Bamboo World]

[100 Boulder condo units] are 1000ft2. I was saying they seem smaller than that. Doesn't look like good use of 1000ft2.

I understand. That is why I said I thought [the 100 Boulder condos] were sold because the MLS postings were all removed. Even then, my above comment still stands: that is a measly 9 poorly-designed small-scale (too small to be economical) studio condos with only 1 unit available on the 2nd floor. Those might technically be "affordable" but I can't imagine many people wanting a 1st floor condo right there with a studio/no balcony/street view for $209k. Those aren't even in a decently walkable area of downtown. If they scaled up, they might be able to offer them at a competitive price.

In my opinion, the 100 Boulder project is a piece of junk.  It's horrible.  It's overpriced.  However, if someone didn't have more than $226,000 to spend on a condo downtown and really wanted to buy a condo downtown, then 100 Boulder would be an option.

The walk score for 100 Boulder is 79.

The walk score for Central Park condos is 77.

The walk score for 3rd & Greenwood ( Urban 8 ) is 62.

[swake]

It's not open 24/7, but there's a Walgreen's on South Houston.

I never knew there was one there, but then I just checked and it closes at 6:00pm!

[DowntownDan]

There's only 3 tiny condo developments downtown. All of them with serious design problems as discussed above and/or too expensive to be marketable (probably because they were all such small scale). Are you meaning why are there so many apartment developments? There are over a thousand apartment units recently completed or planned whereas only 50 (8+18+24) new condos developed, half of which may never be built.

I love the apartment developments.  I don't understand any of the super expensive condos and thought right off the bad they were certain to fail.  I think there would be a market for condos downtown, but not 500K+, or with the obvious problems of Boulder 100. 

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

In my opinion, the 100 Boulder project is a piece of junk.  It's horrible.  It's overpriced.  However, if someone didn't have more than $226,000 to spend on a condo downtown and really wanted to buy a condo downtown, then 100 Boulder would be an option.

The walk score for 100 Boulder is 79.

The walk score for Central Park condos is 77.

The walk score for 3rd & Greenwood ( Urban 8 ) is 62.

Wow, all of those are pretty bad... especially for a downtown supposedly urban area. Cherry St is in the 90s. Most of Renaissance and even large parts of Florence Park have ratings around the 60s-70s. GreenArch is rated 50. I know walkscore is not a great objective measure but it does give an idea of what percentage of things you need to live are within about a 1-mile radius. According to it, downtown centered around the library to 5th and Denver has the highest walkability downtown. That is also where the most homeless tend to congregate day to day FWIW (the people actually having to walk around day to day). That spot isn't necessarily the best location to live because of the lack of lively walking areas or districts in the direct vicinity/nightlife. So maybe the 100 Boulder location wouldn't have been so bad if only they had gathered the investment to make a larger scale project.

[Bamboo World]

[The Walk Score for] Cherry St is in the 90s.

Where is the Walk Score in the 90s along 15th St?

When I typed a few intersections, Walk Score gave the following:

15th & Peoria: 86
15th & Quincy: 87
15th & St Louis: 86
15th & Utica: 88

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Where is the Walk Score in the 90s along 15th St?

When I typed a few intersections, Walk Score gave the following:

15th & Peoria: 86
15th & Quincy: 87
15th & St Louis: 86
15th & Utica: 88

Maybe it has changed the last time I looked at it. Looking at the graph, it is the darkest green around Cherry st for the largest area compared to anywhere else in Tulsa. It used to be in the low 90s for the blocks around that strip. Again, that map is not perfect. It is missing at least half a dozen restaurants and other places just for Cherry St and doesn't even include Reasors on  15th as a grocery store. It says downtown has 2 grocery stores (1 at 4th and Cheyenne which might be a reason that area is so high).

It is still useful to give an idea of how much stuff is in an area.

[Bamboo World]

Maybe [the Walk Score] has changed the last time I looked at it. Looking at the graph, it is the darkest green around Cherry st for the largest area compared to anywhere else in Tulsa. It used to be in the low 90s for the blocks around that strip. Again, that map is not perfect. It is missing at least half a dozen restaurants and other places just for Cherry St and doesn't even include Reasors on  15th as a grocery store. It says downtown has 2 grocery stores (1 at 4th and Cheyenne which might be a reason that area is so high).

It is still useful to give an idea of how much stuff is in an area.

Thanks.  I wanted to be sure we were comparing the same thing.  It looks as though Walk Score has some significant shortcomings.  When I looked at the Walk Score map of downtown Tulsa a few minutes ago, it listed several "grocery" stores that don't exist.  And you are correct, the Reasor's at 15th & Lewis doesn't appear as a grocery store on Walk Score's map.  I'd assumed that the relatively high Walk Score around 4th & Cheyenne was based on the Tulsa Transit station, not "grocery" stores!

Urban 8:  IMO, the units are too vertical.  Most people in Tulsa don't want to live on four levels.  An elevator is an option, but an added expense.  The views around 3rd and Greenwood aren't that wonderful.  I thought perhaps Yvonne would find a tiny niche market in Tulsa for her eight-unit project, but apparently not.

100 Boulder:  An ugly and stupid design.  The units aren't too small, but they're too small for the price.  Most people in Tulsa don't want to pay $200K+ for a studio apartment and snooze on a Murphy bed.  When I looked on the County Assessor's website a few weeks ago, only four of the eighteen units had sold.  Fourteen were still owned by 100 Boulder LLC.

Davenport:  Not ugly, but originally, the building was VERY poorly planned.  When I first saw the floor plans (more than a year ago), I was astounded by the ridiculous waste of space and views.  The units have been re-planned since then, and the layouts are much better.  In general, however, I think the units are too expensive.

But it really doesn't matter what I think.  If Yvonne can find seven or eight buyers ... if Joe Westervelt and Chris Bumgarner can find nine to fourteen more buyers ... if the Davenport developers can find nineteen to twenty-four buyers at their asking price (which is subject to change -- again), then the projects will work.  The Davenport won't be built unless a certain number of units are pre-sold.  A market may develop ... we'll see.  Right now, I don't think there's enough demand for any of these projects.
   

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

But it really doesn't matter what I think.  If Yvonne can find seven or eight buyers ... if Joe Westervelt and Chris Bumgarner can find nine to fourteen more buyers ... if the Davenport developers can find nineteen to twenty-four buyers at their asking price (which is subject to change -- again), then the projects will work.  The Davenport won't be built unless a certain number of units are pre-sold.  A market may develop ... we'll see.  Right now, I don't think there's enough demand for any of these projects.
   

I was hoping they would find success which would lend credibility to building condos in Tulsa but maybe they did the opposite. There is almost certainly a market for mid-priced condos as there has been in every other major city around (even Little Rock which has far more than Tulsa downtown).

Central Park condos regularly sell places at reasonable/cheap prices. Unfortunately, the place has a bad reputation based on management and fees vs the condition of the property. Also, it is not in a prime spot. I've toured the high-end remodels along with average condition ones and it was the things outside your control that turned me off from the place (HVAC, liability with leaks from above, plumbing, pests, ugly tint on windows, sprawled parking lot, inconvenience of coming and going without the convenience of being connected to the hot spots of downtown). I understand any condo can have several of these things, but location was the biggest and if it was a new condo building, most of the others likely wouldn't be issues either.

Strangely, it is faster to drive from Cherry St to Blue Dome/Brady than from Central Park because of the door-to-door factor leaving the condo. So no real benefit to living downtown over a house outside the IDL.

[DTowner]

I was hoping they would find success which would lend credibility to building condos in Tulsa but maybe they did the opposite. There is almost certainly a market for mid-priced condos as there has been in every other major city around (even Little Rock which has far more than Tulsa downtown).

Central Park condos regularly sell places at reasonable/cheap prices. Unfortunately, the place has a bad reputation based on management and fees vs the condition of the property. Also, it is not in a prime spot. I've toured the high-end remodels along with average condition ones and it was the things outside your control that turned me off from the place (HVAC, liability with leaks from above, plumbing, pests, ugly tint on windows, sprawled parking lot, inconvenience of coming and going without the convenience of being connected to the hot spots of downtown). I understand any condo can have several of these things, but location was the biggest and if it was a new condo building, most of the others likely wouldn't be issues either.

Strangely, it is faster to drive from Cherry St to Blue Dome/Brady than from Central Park because of the door-to-door factor leaving the condo. So no real benefit to living downtown over a house outside the IDL.

As I recall, Central Park started as apartments and were turned into condos in the late 1990s (or did they start as condos, become apartments and later turned back into condos?).  I'd be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.

Perhaps to some extent Tulsa's downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don't have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.

[Conan71]

As I recall, Central Park started as apartments and were turned into condos in the late 1990s (or did they start as condos, become apartments and later turned back into condos?).  I'd be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.

Perhaps to some extent Tulsa's downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don't have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.

They started as apartments, constructed in the late 1960's or early 1970's.  I lived there '87 to '89, it was a fun place to live as a young 20 something.  They became condos at some point in the early '90's.  They were a great option for downtown living as there really wasn't much at the time they converted these.  Liberty Tower or University Club were about the only other decent options.  To my knowledge, Liberty Tower has always been condos.  It's infrastructure seems better kept than Central Park.

I'm curious to how the prices at Urban 8 and Davenport would compare to Yorktown Condos at 21st & Yorktown or 2300 Riverside.  I wonder if some reluctance for retirees to buy such a place is if they perceive downtown as becoming "too busy".

Honestly, when I think of retirement, I don't think of dense urban cores.  I think of mountains or sand and water.  That might be part of the issue.  I simply would not invest $400-$500K into a condo in Tulsa, Oklahoma.  I could justify that out in the high country or somewhere in the Caribbean...and it wouldn't be a condo either.  YMMV.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I’d be curious to know if the values have appreciated much over the years.

Not much usually. A lot appreciated from the 90s til now, but many sell for very close the values sold at 10+ years ago. The fixed up ones do a lot better, but few if any keep up with the growth in value that midtown homes have seen in that time. They have benefited from the downtown resurgence, but the small apartments are still selling from $30k-$70k while the larger ones are going around $90-$120k which is about what they were at 8-10 years ago.

Perhaps to some extent Tulsa’s downtown residential market suffers from the fact there are many good and more affordable purchasing options so close to downtown that don’t have many of the risks and drawbacks of buying a condo in downtown.

I think so. Which is why IMO, we need much cheaper options for that to catch on. If everything planned in downtown gets built, it will really boost the area and help provide an experience even close neighborhoods outside the IDL can't compete with, making condo life more desirable (Imagine a massive retail/courtyard place like Santa Fe Square right out your doorstep).

Condo life can be tough. Parking. Getting furniture in/out. Neighbors with barking dogs. If you have a dog... Having to let them out several times a day (In the cold!) as opposed to letting them out the back door. The deal is, (as in bigger cities), you normally get a big discount living in a condo as opposed to living in a house close to downtown. That is not at all the case for these in Tulsa.

[Conan71]

Not much usually. A lot appreciated from the 90s til now, but many sell for very close the values sold at 10+ years ago. The fixed up ones do a lot better, but few if any keep up with the growth in value that midtown homes have seen in that time. They have benefited from the downtown resurgence, but the small apartments are still selling from $30k-$70k while the larger ones are going around $90-$120k which is about what they were at 8-10 years ago.

Essentially, if you used a realtor to sell your CP condo 10 years after you bought it, you will lose about 6% on your investment.

I'm not making a value judgement here on the worth of using a real estate agent, just saying for the average person, a condo at Central Park should not be viewed as an investment.

A friend of the family moved back from NYC in the mid-1980's, he needed a place to live and to park some cash.  He was buying up foreclosed units in Liberty Tower when he could and has done pretty well with them over the years renting them out.