Urban 8

[johrasephoenix]

I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.  You could easily fit 3-6 units in each of those building envelopes.  

[Bamboo World]

I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.

Probably not, because of the position of the stairs and windows.  The units are large, but the stairs and windows are already in place.

If the stairs had been built along a sidewall or in the center of the units, then splitting them into triplexes might work.  But I'm trying to suggest a way Yvonne could "finish" what has already been constructed, re-focus her target market, and get the units sold or leased.

[erfalf]

That's over 100 ft X 100 ft per unit land area.  That's bigger than most suburban addition lots!

I think a typical lot in Tulsa is 50 by 150 with some right away in a lot of areas for alleys. Most suburban lots are wider (ranch style homes) but not near as deep (especially with the advent of attached garages). Even the mansions in Maple Ridge don't sit on much bigger than 100 x 150. I've seen plenty of mansions in Highland Park Texas of equivalent square footage and amenities on the 50 foot wide lots. It's not that the units were too big (necessarily), it's that the land each one takes up is way too much. And to boot, it only serves one function, housing.

I also assume there are no design restraints when it comes to this issue.

[Bamboo World]

There are eight lots.

Lot 8 (the farthest lot east facing 3rd St with Yvonne's furnished model unit) is 67' x 80'.

Lots 3-7 (facing 3rd St) are 40' x 80' each.

Lot 2 (on the corner of 3rd and Greenwood) is 40' x 51'.

Lot 1 (facing Greenwood) is an L-shaped lot, 40' wide along Greenwood with a 22' wide access lane to 3rd Street for a driveway.  

There's probably some sort of mutual access agreement along the north side of Lots 3-7 for the driveway from Lots 1 and 8 to the rear garages.

The units are approximately 32 feet wide with an 8' courtyard along one side.

The overall area of the project, measured to the centerlines of the abutting streets, is 420' x 110', or 46,200 sq ft, or 1.06 acre.

The density is 7.54 dwelling units per acre.

[DTowner]

About 54 seconds into her report, Meagan Farley said that there isn't even sheetrock up on the walls and most of them are still unfinished.  I take that to mean that drywall has not been installed in some areas.

I interpret that to mean the developer cannot or is unwilling to pay to finish them before getting them under contract.  The price drop so far probably reflects the reduction in the high end finishes that were originally planned (with upcharges to add those features back in).  The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.

I hoped this project would succeed, but it never made sense at this stage of downtown development, at this location and at this low density use of expensive real estate.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.

Interesting to note that the Zestimate is $350k & $391k for the 2 price options ($580k & $690k respectively).

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I wonder if these could be commercially viable as 3 flats / triplexes.  You could easily fit 3-6 units in each of those building envelopes.  

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.

[Bamboo World]

I interpret that to mean the developer cannot or is unwilling to pay to finish them before getting them under contract.  The price drop so far probably reflects the reduction in the high end finishes that were originally planned (with upcharges to add those features back in).  The price still has a long way to drop to find the market.  Either the developer will do that to sell the units, or the bank will sell them "as is" when it takes them over.  Right now, I doubt you could get an 80% mortgage based on the list price.

I hoped this project would succeed, but it never made sense at this stage of downtown development, at this location and at this low density use of expensive real estate.

So, you don't interpret "there isn't even sheetrock up" as "drywall is installed, taped and mudded, but not painted yet."

I agree with your assessment, DTowner.  Urban 8 never made sense.  I'm trying to think of ways Yvonne could cut her losses.

Zestimates aren't necessarily reliable, but I think Yvonne has been extremely unrealistic all along, and those asking prices must be lowered.  Otherwise, the project will continue to sit empty.
 

[Bamboo World]

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.

Easy to say, but not so easy to do.  Single family dwellings and duplexes are covered by the International Residential Code.  Triplexes are covered by the more stringent International Building Code.  Egress and fire rated separations between dwelling units isn't as simple as adding a wall with a door on each floor parallel to the stairs.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

The highlighted comment just has too much of a Trump flavor to it to not comment....

Tulsa IS a great little city!!


What is it that is making us think in all these backward thought processes...??   We are a great city - and as with all things, there is plenty to improve on!  But that in no way negates what we already are and have!

I didn't mean it like that. I was referring to people complaining about our downtown not being great and nothing compared to Dallas/KC/Chicago. I agree that all of those cities downtowns make ours look pretty menial but that we can have one of the greatest downtowns of any smaller city around. But we are not there yet. Our downtown isn't even as good as Little Rock or Des Moines in many ways (they have lots of condos, DM has great walkability downtown and is clean, LR has transit/trolley great walkability downtown - partially thanks to the topography forcing everything to be close). In other ways Tulsa is much better (bigger, more to do). I would say it is a good start and well on its way to becoming a great little downtown if all of the planned projects get built soon enough.

I think many other rival cities have a higher percentage of people supporting downtown compared to Tulsa where the vast majority of people staying in their pockets of town. Furthermore, Cherry St, Brookside, Whittier, Riverview/Uptown, Pearl and now Renaissance all need support (and mostly get decent support) from the community, especially midtown which would otherwise support downtown a little better. I think Tulsa's overall midtown is better than a lot of similar sized cities but the downtown is slightly less utilized and was destroyed during the 80s/90s so it has been like starting over with no previously established districts.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Easy to say, but not so easy to do.  Single family dwellings and duplexes are covered by the International Residential Code.  Triplexes are covered by the more stringent International Building Code.  Egress and fire rated separations between dwelling units isn't as simple as adding a wall with a door on each floor parallel to the stairs.

Obviously not. No one said it was that simple. I specifically said "potentially" and it would be tough. With the elevator plus stairs (and perhaps a fire escape added to back), there are potential solutions for multiple exits. Still could potentially be converted to triplex. Obviously the architect et al would have to look at it.

A duplex would be easier (especially with parking) and you may only need a total of $4k/month in rent to break even so $2.5-3k/mo. for 2-floor condo and $1-1.5k/mo. for 1-floor studio and it could work better than trying to find someone to rent for $4k+ a month.  Maybe renting commercially is the answer but parking could be tough.

[Conan71]

So, you don't interpret "there isn't even sheetrock up" as "drywall is installed, taped and mudded, but not painted yet."
 

Do you just get off on stalking my posts then making subtle jackass comments?  This isn't the first time, it's as if you feel a need to challenge me or my comments no matter the topic.

I was going by the text story posted on Channel 6, and made the assumption of what we called "unfinished walls" when I worked in construction.  Technically, I guess an unfinished wall could be one that hasn't even been framed for that matter.  I did not re-watch the video to see that she was saying there were places lacking sheetrock.

Onward and upward:

That is an interesting thought. Looking at the stairs, if a wall with a door was added on each floor parallel to the stairs, it could potentially convert into an efficiency apartment with a balcony. The stairs and maybe front balconies would be common areas. The upper floor could be sort of a penthouse/studio. It would be tough to reroute plumbing and add kitchenettes to each floor, but seems potentially doable. 3 places but only 2 spots in garage so parking would be tough too.

You'd still have an insane cost per square foot though which might even rival Westervelt's brutalist disaster.

[Bamboo World]

Do you just get off on stalking my posts then making subtle jackass comments?

No.  

There was a reason I posted my comment about the lack of drywall in some areas.  It was based on Meagan Farley's Channel 6 report from yesterday, which I linked.

Less than ten minutes after I posted my comment about the drywall, you posted a reply, quoting mine, with a different interpretation.

Interpret as you wish.  I have no idea what the state of the drywall is inside those units.  I haven't looked inside for months.  It could be as Meagan Farley said.  It could be as you said.  It could be something else.

I'm trying to throw out a few ideas so Yvonne can sell or lease her huge townhouses.

----------

P.S.  I don't stalk anyone's posts on the TN Forum, except PonderInc's.

[johrasephoenix]

I lived in the Brady District for awhile with no parking spot which is way more crowded than the East Village.  Even during First Friday Art Crawl + Drillers + Tulsa Tough you could find parking pretty easy if you went a few blocks down the street. 

I don't think it would be hard to rent these if say, you got a discount for parking on the street.  I can't imagine street parking currently being difficult there at any time if you know how to parallel park (there are whole streets that are completely vacant nearby).  And if Santa Fe Square and the Boxyard and all that stuff really takes off and parking ever does get a little bit challenging, then that will be an awesome spot to live and people will just deal with parking a block of two away.  Walking a block or two to your car is pretty par for the course in an urban neighborhood, plus the people attracted to living there just might be the kind of people who most "get it" and are willing to trade driveways for walkability. 

I haven't had a reserved parking spot since 2013 and never had a real issue except once getting towed for unknowingly parking on the route of the Pride Parade. 

[Bamboo World]

With the elevator plus stairs (and perhaps a fire escape added to back), there are potential solutions for multiple exits. Still could potentially be converted to triplex.

Each unit could potentially be converted to a triplex, I suppose.  But johrasephoenix was wondering if the units could be commercially viable as triplexes.  In my opinion, the difficulties/expenses involved in converting to triplexes would negate any chance of commercial viability.

Elevators are not considered as exits, for a variety of reasons.  Regardless, adding elevators will increase costs, making almost any option less viable.

In my opinion, there is no market in Tulsa for Urban 8, so Yvonne needs to get creative about how the project can be re-branded and re-marketed, using most of what has already been built.  Solid walls parallel to the stairs would block natural light from the front of the units, resulting in less desirable/leasable/sellable interiors.