The Edge at East Village

[johrasephoenix]

Has anyone walked around the new Edge at East Village project?  All-in-all, I'm tremendously excited about having more downtown housing going up on that site.  But the back of that building is truly terrible.  It's a huge, two decker parking garage with a long, low (like 50 feet) on ramp with bright flourescent lights and no attempt at beautification.  Most of it's back street frontage looks like an oversized shopping center loading dock.  It prettty much kills the future development potential for the lots to the north and east of the building, which is the natural spot for the next wave of growth in 5-10 years.  

Beyond that, like 50% of the lot is dedicated to that long, low, horribly ugly parking structure that doesn't even really look like a parking garage.  You could have easily fit an entire second apartment complex.  Or do something to conceal the parking structure.  Or at least give it a real streetwall, even if it is a parking garage, instead of this 50 foot on-ramp at a 15 degree incline.  Or do something to beautify the parking facility instead of just raw, poured concrete with hospital grade flourescent lighting.

[carltonplace]

It looks like the street landscaping will include trees which will help somewhat.

[erfalf]

Then where should the "back of the building go for something that nearly fronts on four streets. I know Tulsa is no New York, but in New York for example there are loading docks and "back doors" all over the place on streets. It is a necessity. Not every single street in all of Manhattan is a commercial area. Now that being said, you will never see anything like this on any of the Avenues, or streets like 34th, 42nd & 57th. But on developments this large (entire city blocks) there has to be a back in most cases, particularly in commercial buildings.

[swake]

Then where should the "back of the building go for something that nearly fronts on four streets. I know Tulsa is no New York, but in New York for example there are loading docks and "back doors" all over the place on streets. It is a necessity. Not every single street in all of Manhattan is a commercial area. Now that being said, you will never see anything like this on any of the Avenues, or streets like 34th, 42nd & 57th. But on developments this large (entire city blocks) there has to be a back in most cases, particularly in commercial buildings.

yeah, even in Manhattan most of the side streets are pretty desolate.

[johrasephoenix]

There does need to be backs, but then again I feel like there are creative design solutions.  In the old part of downtown Tulsa and in places like Chicago you have the backs of buildings facing an alleyway where deliveries, garbage trucks, and city services can access the building (while the street front remains pleasant).  The building definitely needs a back and parking entrance, but does it have to be an entire 1/3 of a city block's street frontage?  

Especially because so much of that lot faces the back of Urban 8... you could have your parking garage on that side facing the back of the Urban 8 project rather than the street front on 2nd and Hartford.  You don't even have to lose any parking just resituate it on the site.

[DTowner]

There does need to be backs, but then again I feel like there are creative design solutions.  In the old part of downtown Tulsa and in places like Chicago you have the backs of buildings facing an alleyway where deliveries, garbage trucks, and city services can access the building (while the street front remains pleasant).  The building definitely needs a back and parking entrance, but does it have to be an entire 1/3 of a city block's street frontage?  

Especially because so much of that lot faces the back of Urban 8... you could have your parking garage on that side facing the back of the Urban 8 project rather than the street front on 2nd and Hartford.  You don't even have to lose any parking just resituate it on the site.

I doubt the sellers or buyers of Urban 8 would enjoy staring at the parking garage out the window of a $750,000 townhome.  Of the 4 sides of The Edge, the side with the parking garage is the least objectionable location for the parking.

[johrasephoenix]

Meh.  The view out of the back of those townhouses is their own parking lot anyway.  And it's better that the backward view from Urban 8 be the back of a garage vs the back of a building than the view from two blocks of street frontage be the garage. 

[erfalf]

There does need to be backs, but then again I feel like there are creative design solutions.  In the old part of downtown Tulsa and in places like Chicago you have the backs of buildings facing an alleyway where deliveries, garbage trucks, and city services can access the building (while the street front remains pleasant).  The building definitely needs a back and parking entrance, but does it have to be an entire 1/3 of a city block's street frontage?  

No, in Chicago they have the same thing, especially when the building fronts on several streets. In other words there are no alleys. Just like this development.

Here's one, many are directly accross the street from retail/restaurants. And all are pretty close to Michigan Avenue. That's just the way it will have to happen. It's not a bad problem to have. All though I would generally favor smaller much more granular developments, but hey, beggars can't be choosers.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8933812,-87.6210941,3a,75y,65.41h,85.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swwbCNl9ETRVNzI3pFzsn6w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8950751,-87.62547,3a,75y,72.81h,94.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxz8w56XT5DRIZOaggFfjLg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.896073,-87.6254938,3a,75y,60.31h,82.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfeSrwj8Lsgj2QTnRcnDJxg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[erfalf]

I doubt the sellers or buyers of Urban 8 would enjoy staring at the parking garage out the window of a $750,000 townhome.  Of the 4 sides of The Edge, the side with the parking garage is the least objectionable location for the parking.

Agreed. Certainly don't want to do 2nd or 3rd, and who in their right mind is going to design an apartment building that has its backside to the best views of the entire building? No brainer.

[johrasephoenix]

You can do something like this:

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/one-city-block

The building wraps around the entire city block.  The parking is internal on the ground level, accessed through a bay, and the interior courtyard is on the roof of the garage.  There's still a parking bay but the design hides 90% of the parking structure from the street. 

[SXSW]

I haven't walked around them, does Hartford go through to 3rd or is that the entrance to the parking garage? 

[erfalf]

You can do something like this:

http://denverinfill.com/blog/tag/one-city-block

The building wraps around the entire city block.  The parking is internal on the ground level, accessed through a bay, and the interior courtyard is on the roof of the garage.  There's still a parking bay but the design hides 90% of the parking structure from the street. 

That development has 100% underground parking. I'm no geologist, but that's not something that happens around here very often. I believe it has something to do with extremely shallow bed rock. Again, in my opinion this is a non-issue as Kenosha basically serves as an alley its entire length downtown.

and to SXSW, I believe Hartford between 2nd and 3rd has been eliminated entirely.

[cannon_fodder]

The Holiday Inn and Petroleum Club downtown both have underground parking. The municipal forum/courthouse area has a level (or two?) of underground parking (that is to say, under the top deck there is a layer that is really ground level. But under that there is another level or two of parking).  Otherwise, I can't think of any underground parking in Tulsa.

I hear different things on why we can't. I also see the above underground parking, basements, tunnels, and bowls that are below grade that don't seem to have issues. So maybe its a cultural or cost thing?

[Bamboo World]

The Holiday Inn and Petroleum Club downtown both have underground parking. The municipal forum/courthouse area has a level (or two?) of underground parking (that is to say, under the top deck there is a layer that is really ground level. But under that there is another level or two of parking).  Otherwise, I can't think of any underground parking in Tulsa.

I hear different things on why we can't. I also see the above underground parking, basements, tunnels, and bowls that are below grade that don't seem to have issues. So maybe its a cultural or cost thing?

Underground parking is costly to construct, and it's costly to maintain, because it requires mechanical ventilation.

There's underground parking to the west of the Hyatt below Sampson Plaza and to the east below Williams Green.

ONEOK has underground parking in a garage between 6th-7th-Boulder-Cheyenne.

[erfalf]

But I don't think the underground parking here is utilized to the magnitude it is in other places. For example I worked in a building in Dallas that has a  7 or 8 story underground garage. All be it this was the largest underground lot in the city, but there were plenty more 3, 4 or 5 story lots all over town.

I'm pretty sure all those places mentioned in Tulsa have no more than 2 levels and even some of those are utilizing fairly steep elevation grades.

It is drastically more expensive than above ground parking construction. But I still think it is a little more than market forces that limit this option in this area.