81st & Lynn Lane - Broken Arrow

[rdj]

City of Broken Arrow discussing developer incentives.  City attorney only discussing in executive session.  Important to keep development deals secretive but hope this becomes public before a deal is absolutely finalized.

Anyone have an idea what this is?  Costco is one of the rumors.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Broken Arrow has announced they are going to put $17 million - notice I did NOT say invest - in an area at the north side of their downtown.  Developing a site where the old church was torn down....

This they say will generate at LEAST $150,000 a year of increased sales tax!!

Or about 100 years to break even point!!

Go team, Broken Arrow!!   Such clever people they have running the show that have moved from Tulsa and took all their Tulsa 'stuff' with them...

[TeeDub]

Did you watch the same news broadcast that I did?   Maybe you should re-watch it.

http://www.fox23.com/news/retail-apartment-development-project-planned-for-broken-arrows-rose-district/576533307

[heironymouspasparagus]

Did you watch the same news broadcast that I did?   Maybe you should re-watch it.

http://www.fox23.com/news/retail-apartment-development-project-planned-for-broken-arrows-rose-district/576533307

Heard in on radio.   And how is that different from what I said??  City putting in $17 million.  Gonna get back $150,000 in sales tax every year...  Actually 113 years to break even.

17,000000
----------    =   113 years.
   150,000


Great investment!!   Not.

[TeeDub]

The City isn't putting in $17 million, the developer is.

Also, I would imagine there will be rent paid by the retail, office and residential space.   The story doesn't mention that, it is merely an assumption based on my past life experience.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The City isn't putting in $17 million, the developer is.

Also, I would imagine there will be rent paid by the retail, office and residential space.   The story doesn't mention that, it is merely an assumption based on my past life experience.

Maybe.  They said an investment for BA.  The radio report sounded like it was BA putting in all the money.   BA has a history of working "closely" with developers...there will be more to the story than just that.  They are already in for $700,000 just to buy the place and demolish the building.  There will be cost sharing at the very least, if not the whole $17 million.   They should have just kept the land and built a new city hall to get out of that place they have now - if I were mayor and council I would be embarrassed to have that remain as my legacy in office representing the city.


Rent to the developers.  There won't be a property tax benefit though due to the Broken Arrow development authority ownership of the land....unless they sell it off, too.  That is probably one of the incentives.

BA also spent $5 million on just re-doing Main street in the last few years.  Sales tax from that zone was $11,000 in 2011.  2016 it was $400,000, so that will only be a 10+ year payback at the higher anticipated rate.  Which makes much some sense...

[TeeDub]

They are already in for $700,000 just to buy the place and demolish the building. 

You think they really spent $100k to demolish the building?   They only spent $600k on the purchase.     

I work in the Rose district so I like to see it plodding along.   It's also good to see churches turned into revenue producing entities.

http://rosedistrict.com/news/5420/

[sgrizzle]

Only store I went to in the Rose district shut down because the roof leaks and landlord won't fix it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You think they really spent $100k to demolish the building?   They only spent $600k on the purchase.     

I work in the Rose district so I like to see it plodding along.   It's also good to see churches turned into revenue producing entities.

http://rosedistrict.com/news/5420/

They said it cost $100,000 to demolish it last year.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You think they really spent $100k to demolish the building?   They only spent $600k on the purchase.      

I work in the Rose district so I like to see it plodding along.   It's also good to see churches turned into revenue producing entities.

http://rosedistrict.com/news/5420/

I think it is very nice area.  There was an antique store on west side of main next to that little park with the bronze statues - little knick-knack store last time I was by there and paid attention - that I looked at a few years ago to maybe buy.  Guy wanted $150,000 for it at the time....about 8 years ago.   Was kinda dicey at the time.  Bet it costs more today!


The question is whether these investments - and they are much bigger than just the $5 million for the street, with more on the way - will ever be worthwhile to the city...result in net positive money back.  I am skeptical, but willing to wait, watch and see.  I have only an indirect interest since it is family that is having to help pay for that...but it may be taking away some of my inheritance!


And the Chamber of Commerce guy is typical urban renewal fan!  He gushes on about how great it is to have gotten rid of so many of the old houses around there so they could build so many new condos!!   He makes my point precisely about people moving from Tulsa (and elsewhere) because they like the "small town feel" then bring all their debris with them and gentrify it with tasteless, not at all high class, unremarkable, short-lived architecture and building materials/methods/techniques.  Equivalent of "fast-food" housing....

Depending on what part of Main you work on, you know the areas I am talking about.

[Conan71]

I think my place as a skeptic on sales taxing our way to prosperity is fairly well known on this board.  However, Heir, you are forgetting that the renovations they are doing in the Rose District area do help raise property taxes in addition to sales tax.  BA also does have the benefit that this area seems to be importing sales tax dollars from other areas since they have done a very good job of promoting the district in the Tulsa region.  I would also assume the Rose District has likely kept some people home in BA on date night instead of migrating to Cherry St or the Brady.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I think my place as a skeptic on sales taxing our way to prosperity is fairly well known on this board.  However, Heir, you are forgetting that the renovations they are doing in the Rose District area do help raise property taxes in addition to sales tax.  BA also does have the benefit that this area seems to be importing sales tax dollars from other areas since they have done a very good job of promoting the district in the Tulsa region.  I would also assume the Rose District has likely kept some people home in BA on date night instead of migrating to Cherry St or the Brady.

We go through there (Rose District - RD) quite a bit - usually every weekend at least once.  We love the chocolatier!!  Amazing, world class chocolate!!  Love, love, love...!!  Did I mention amazing...??

We haven't gotten to go to the Main Street Tavern yet - it is always busy, though.  There is a restaurant across from them to the east - Franklin's Pork & Barrel - that is going for a kind of classic yuppie place.  Breakfast not great.  Don't know about lunch/dinner since it was so underwhelming the first time we haven't been back.  Seems to get good reviews, though.

Books & Bistro is cute little place - very good food...have been there a few times - but seems very quiet when we go by.  Nice little underappreciated 'jewel'.

And Rollo's Bakery - we have to keep threatening each other so we don't go there all the time!!  It is dangerous!!

Andolini's we went to in Tulsa was "meh", so we haven't bothered with the BA one yet.

Fiesta Mambo is typical bean/rice/burrito/taco Mexican slop.  Not gonna make you sick, but just like all the other Mexican restaurants.  (There is a nice little Mexican restaurant in another area of BA  called El Sombrero that I like a lot, but SWMBO is less enthusiastic - since this is my comment - it is great!)  Not sure Mambo is still there - last time through, there was 'stuff' going on in that area and I couldn't really see well.

Still waiting to go to The Rooftop, but by the look of their menu, it is going to be formulaic yuppy "kitchy" place - decent food at higher than justified by the taste/flavor/quality prices with the "ambience" justifying the attitude.  Likely uninspiring.  Will let you know....

And one of the best restaurants is miles from the Rose District!  Smokies.  Should not say that...they are always too busy when we go out there as it is...

Downtown is always busy now days.  Good to see.  We remember driving through in the dead old days.  Family likes most of it, but there still is the gentrification/displacement/urban renewal issues surrounding downtown that I have touched on previously.  When you have two mega churches running things, it gets a little strange...almost like a real world Truman Show!   It is becoming Tulsa in way too many ways.  

The BA museum on the south end is a cute little jewel - haven't been in a while, but they used to have that old log cabin on display that sat at Persimmon Hollow for so many decades!  Very glad to see some of that building didn't get trashed....would love to have gotten that for the new place!  Can always use another old log cabin!!   There is also a very small military museum on north end of RD...haven't been yet.

Oh, yeah...almost forgot - they tore up the farmers market to put in a splash pad.  Overall, I think/thought that was stupid, but now we see lots of kids there having a ton of fun, so I really don't mind spending money like that to make it nice for the kids.  Rather have my sales taxes there going to the kids than some other things...

I don't think they are importing sales taxes so much as just keeping the locals spending at home - I think you are very right about that...keeping them home.  BA is 100,000 people now - about what Tulsa was in early 60's.  Tulsa had a much bigger "boom town" run-up than BA ever did, so in the 50's and 60's there was much more 'happening' in Tulsa than there is in BA today at the same size population.  They are trying to keep people "home" and make a real city out of it.  Sadly, that has translated so far into them becoming Tulsa instead of their own identity.  And they are in the "urban renewal" phase right now...copying all of Tulsa's screw-ups, too!

[TeeDub]

Mambo is still there.   

In the Raw is better now that Scarpa took it over (he also does Main Street, Rooftop, and Stogies.)

If you like Franklin's try Potbellies.   Its a little smoky dive bar (I think it was once owned by the group that had Crawpappies and Sutures) but the food there is AWESOME.  He uses it to test out his recipes.

The other place to try if you haven't yet is Tastee Treat.   (Not officially in the Rose District...   Just south at about 85th.)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Mambo is still there.  

In the Raw is better now that Scarpa took it over (he also does Main Street, Rooftop, and Stogies.)

If you like Franklin's try Potbellies.   Its a little smoky dive bar (I think it was once owned by the group that had Crawpappies and Sutures) but the food there is AWESOME.  He uses it to test out his recipes.

The other place to try if you haven't yet is Tastee Treat.   (Not officially in the Rose District...   Just south at about 85th.)

Ha!!   Maybe I was unclear - don't really like Franklin's at all.  Tried breakfast.  Underwhelmed.  Haven't been back.

Potbellies is one we have wondered about but never have tried.  If it's smoky, it's a no go.

Tastee Treat!!  Yay!!   I have been going there from time to time since the early-70's!  Maybe earlier, just can't quite remember - actually, I think we would go there in high school...60's.  Different type food and place, but always kind of reminded me of the Lot-A-Burger on North Lewis for some reason... fond memories of both!

BA was a 'destination' town in high school.  As was Owasso, Sand Springs, and occasionally Sapulpa.

[Conan71]

Ha!!   Maybe I was unclear - don't really like Franklin's at all.  Tried breakfast.  Underwhelmed.  Haven't been back.

Potbellies is one we have wondered about but never have tried.  If it's smoky, it's a no go.

Tastee Treat!!  Yay!!   I have been going there from time to time since the early-70's!  Maybe earlier, just can't quite remember - actually, I think we would go there in high school...60's.  Different type food and place, but always kind of reminded me of the Lot-A-Burger on North Lewis for some reason... fond memories of both!

BA was a 'destination' town in high school.  As was Owasso, Sand Springs, and occasionally Sapulpa.

Is "Frank's" the hamburger stand west of Elm on Kenosha on the south side of the road?

We used to eat there about daily when I worked at a small motorcycle repair shop in BA in the early 1980's.  I just had a flashback to that place.