REI

[PonderInc]

The hideous quality of all Riverside development (except for the Blue Rose, which was done well... and of course Elwood's) is one of the reasons I can't support the dam project.  We would spend $300 million for dams and then be forced to develop the land to justify the debt (in the name of "economic development). 

I care more about the River Trails and green space than I care about water in the river.  And I certainly don't want Riverside Drive lined with suburban-style, big box developments and surface parking lots.  It would be a horrible joke to have water in the river and then line the river with asphalt.

I'll take the sand bars with my trails and green space over asphalt any day!  Save the $300 million for transit projects.  (True economic development and a nice dose of opportunity / equality would be generated by a functional transit system.  Water in the river....not so much.)

[Conan71]

That's what people said about King's Landing.

Talk about something that turned it's donkey to the river...

[SXSW]

The hideous quality of all Riverside development (except for the Blue Rose, which was done well... and of course Elwood's) is one of the reasons I can't support the dam project.  We would spend $300 million for dams and then be forced to develop the land to justify the debt (in the name of "economic development). 

I care more about the River Trails and green space than I care about water in the river.  And I certainly don't want Riverside Drive lined with suburban-style, big box developments and surface parking lots.  It would be a horrible joke to have water in the river and then line the river with asphalt.

I'll take the sand bars with my trails and green space over asphalt any day!  Save the $300 million for transit projects.  (True economic development and a nice dose of opportunity / equality would be generated by a functional transit system.  Water in the river....not so much.)

If there is a river development overlay district like Blake mentioned that could help drive any future development a different direction than what we've seen.  Honestly outside of this area and around the west bank festival park there isn't a lot of developable land along the river in Tulsa that isn't either too narrow, already parkland or industrial.  Smaller-scale projects like Blue Rose are what I hope gets developed in Tulsa with one or two larger ones this being one and the west bank another.

[SXSW]

I met with the developers several times. We discussed alternative design plans and riverfront orientation. They were having none of it.

The only thing I can think of is that they know a lot of people will be parking there to use the trails and think they need extra spaces.  Or have future development in mind and will have parking until it's developed.

[JoeMommaBlake]

I'm in a council meeting right now, but I'll try to reply to the points and questions I remember.

1. The design guidelines can not be made to apply to this design, which sucks.
2. I agree with the statement that this bad design will inspire action to prevent it in the future. That is exactly what is happening.
3. Future projects will have a design overlay. I am confident that it will be very good and will produce the kind of outcomes we all want.
4. REI has made a corporate decision to go to the standardized floor plan model. This is understandably a smart decision for retailers as it allows them to define a repeatable floor plan from store to store. The negative is that we lose the unique reuse projects REI has done in the past and swap them out for typical big box repeat stores.
5. Some of the parking on that site was requested by city staff to accommodate anticipated River Parks usage. They didn't want to see people parking there for River Parks taking up the spaces for REI and the other stores and then having the retailers complain. This is something that happens at Blue Rose all the time to the detriment of the restaurant. We do need the River Parks tenants to be successful, so I understand that. I just wish we could've solved that problem with a little more creativity.
6. There are some incredible waterfront designs available online with a simple google search. We've been studying those designs in our design committee. Really exciting to see what could happen if we just defined the standard.
7. To assume that the mayor has had any input on this may be a stretch. I doubt he's been very involved in it. It was handled by Clay Byrd and the authority that owns the property. To be fair to Clay, while he's fine with the look of this and doesn't seem to agree with the standards I would have preferred, he's also said he's fine with design standards as long as he knows them going into the negotiations. The issue in this case was that we started springing these issues on the developer when they were already far down the road.
8. This is not REI specifically. This is a developer. That said, I'm under the impression the developer was hired by REI, which suggests that REI is fine with the development style.

If there are any more questions, let me know. I'll do my best to answer. Also, if there are any I missed, please bring them to my attention.

[PonderInc]

The River Parks website says that the river trails are used by "tens of thousands of people annually."

OK, so let's say it's 90,000. That equates to an average of about 250 trail users per day.

So if every trail user of the entire 26 mile system arrived at 71st & Riverside at the same moment in a single occupancy car, we could fit every user in the REI parking lot utilizing only those spaces provided in EXCESS of the required parking.

If you're having trouble visualizing a 612 space parking lot, picture the Target parking lot at 17th and Yale. Then imagine it quite a bit bigger.

This is stupid.

[sgrizzle]

The River Parks website says that the river trails are used by "tens of thousands of people annually."

OK, so let's say it's 90,000. That equates to an average of about 250 trail users per day.

That math would assume that every person who comes to River Parks only uses it once per year. (90,000 users / 365 days = 247)

If the average visitor visits once a month, then we're talking 2,959 spaces needed.

Disagree on the math, still agree that the parking is stupid. Can't believe the city asked for all of these extra spots in unstructured spaces.

[AdamsHall]

I'm in a council meeting right now, but I'll try to reply to the points and questions I remember.

1. The design guidelines can not be made to apply to this design, which sucks.
2. I agree with the statement that this bad design will inspire action to prevent it in the future. That is exactly what is happening.
3. Future projects will have a design overlay. I am confident that it will be very good and will produce the kind of outcomes we all want.
...

If there are any more questions, let me know. I'll do my best to answer. Also, if there are any I missed, please bring them to my attention.

Thanks for the reply.  This is the kind of thing I was hoping for.  Sometimes it takes a slap in the face to get people organized and into action.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm not sure how Tulsa fits in unless REI is planning an outreach to obese adults who love guns. Those folks already have Gander Mountain.

I can already feel the 'outreach'...  Haven't found "my" Gander Mountain in Tulsa yet, so just gonna have to settle for WalMart and mail order for guns and ammo!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

The hideous quality of all Riverside development (except for the Blue Rose, which was done well... and of course Elwood's) is one of the reasons I can't support the dam project.  We would spend $300 million for dams and then be forced to develop the land to justify the debt (in the name of "economic development). 

I care more about the River Trails and green space than I care about water in the river.  And I certainly don't want Riverside Drive lined with suburban-style, big box developments and surface parking lots.  It would be a horrible joke to have water in the river and then line the river with asphalt.

I'll take the sand bars with my trails and green space over asphalt any day!  Save the $300 million for transit projects.  (True economic development and a nice dose of opportunity / equality would be generated by a functional transit system.  Water in the river....not so much.)

Second the motion....


It is like we are totally oblivious to the Riverwalk.  Massive parking.  Non-viable retail.  Movie theater gone.  Lots of rationalizations.  Geez....we just don't ever learn from other's mistakes, 'cause now we want to make the same ones all over again - destroying a lot of green space in the meantime!

[Conan71]

The River Parks website says that the river trails are used by "tens of thousands of people annually."

OK, so let's say it's 90,000. That equates to an average of about 250 trail users per day.

So if every trail user of the entire 26 mile system arrived at 71st & Riverside at the same moment in a single occupancy car, we could fit every user in the REI parking lot utilizing only those spaces provided in EXCESS of the required parking.

If you're having trouble visualizing a 612 space parking lot, picture the Target parking lot at 17th and Yale. Then imagine it quite a bit bigger.

This is stupid.

Based on a study TUWC did for RPA on Turkey Mountain usage, TMUWA weekly usage is about 10,000-11,000.  I suspect Riverparks overall usage from 11th to 96th is somewhat more than that.

[SXSW]

8. This is not REI specifically. This is a developer. That said, I'm under the impression the developer was hired by REI, which suggests that REI is fine with the development style.

As green/sustainable as REI claims to be I'm surprised they don't have a say.  You would think they would want their only (for now) store in NE Oklahoma to be a destination and more of a showcase for green design and outdoor activities.  Still hoping they eventually open a downtown location.

[Townsend]

As green/sustainable as REI claims to be I'm surprised they don't have a say.  You would think they would want their only (for now) store in NE Oklahoma to be a destination and more of a showcase for green design and outdoor activities.  Still hoping they eventually open a downtown location.

It looks as though they're trying to match the parking lot look of the Luby's across the street.

Speaking of Luby's...are there plans for that?  Strip mall with a Kum & Go out front?

[BKDotCom]

Speaking of Luby's...are there plans for that?  Strip mall with a Kum & Go out front?

seems like a good location for an REI

[swake]

seems like a good location for an REI

Seriously.