kNOW Your Tulsa April Meeting: Water in the River

[sgrizzle]

The overlooked part of the levee argument is that there is a levee organization, and they have been approached to ask how much money they want to fix up the levees in coordination with this and they said none.

We can all hang out in the back seat and say the levees are crap and need replaced, but if the people in charge of them don't want to do anything about it even when offered the money to do so, the levees aren't getting replaced.

[AquaMan]

They don't know how. And it is hard work to do so. They don't have to, so they don't.

[AquaMan]

Do a cost/benefit analysis for the sand springs area. The cost is prohibitive, the benefit is marginal and mostly spin. That is why I said, it was both. Yes, water in the river  would be preferable. No, it isn't really a profitable enterprise. Why is this so hard?

GT, float the upstream river with me. See what you will submerge for what little return.

[Conan71]

I hate to say it, but the Sand Springs development is not intuitive in any way shape or form.  Unless it offers sub market room rates vs. downtown Tulsa, why would anyone stay in their area?  There is literally nothing else to do, it is not walkable, and their CBD is on the other side of the 412 viaduct.

I really don't see how this pays for itself.  Without any sort of recreational or typical tourism options in the immediate area, all they have done is build a hotel that will lack for business because there is nothing to do in the area.  People will drive the additional 8 miles to downtown Tulsa where there is really something to do.

There again... development for the sake of development without a real plan as to how to build a really good destination.
 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Some other interesting notes
1. Our river is largely like it is now due to the keystone dam, poor zink dam design and once daily water releases
2. The Sand Springs dam is most important as it is being used to change the nightly releases into a more continuous water flow downstream.
3. While the dam would create lakes the only extend roughly a couple of miles upstream, the rest of the river would look more like it's pre-keystone self, with a more steady flow of water.
4. The plan is to include a maintenance endowment to fund the maintenance.

I am curious what you mean by "largely like it is"...?   You appear to feel that is a negative thing, just from the tone of comment and possibly the result of Keystone dam.   I really hope you don't think that this river was any different before Keystone.  Aquaman commented on how it was in the 50's... then and before, the river was always just like you see it below Zink dam.  Mostly sand most of the year.  With extremely intense intervals - for Brookside residents - of very high water flow, inundating the ground to the east all the way to Peoria, and often close to or reaching Utica.   I used to watch it flood and be dry, too.

Keystone dam wasn't completed until the mid 60's, and until that time, the river cycle was probably 96% of the time dry sand bed like you see it much of the time now, and about 4% of the time roaring river, flooding the town and doing a lot of damage - often more than once a year.  Like in "River of No Return".  I don't know the release schedules at the dam, but any schedule they have will be sending water down the river on a much more regular and more often rate than before the dam.  And it has been a little while since we had any flooding in Brookside.

Trying to put water in the river full time could probably be done with the series of dams.  At huge cost - almost certainly at a loss or negative value ratio.  As a species, we have built Las Vegas....so we can 'do' anything.  The question is whether we should.

[sgrizzle]

I hate to say it, but the Sand Springs development is not intuitive in any way shape or form.  Unless it offers sub market room rates vs. downtown Tulsa, why would anyone stay in their area?  There is literally nothing else to do, it is not walkable, and their CBD is on the other side of the 412 viaduct.

I really don't see how this pays for itself.  Without any sort of recreational or typical tourism options in the immediate area, all they have done is build a hotel that will lack for business because there is nothing to do in the area.  People will drive the additional 8 miles to downtown Tulsa where there is really something to do.

There again... development for the sake of development without a real plan as to how to build a really good destination.
 

Hate to tell you, but basically every person I know that comes to town stays at 71st and memorial or, more likely, 31st and memorial. People book hotels off of websites for their vendor or places like travelocity. When you there, the hotel on 412 on the way to Sand Springs is listed as "Downtown"

[heironymouspasparagus]

Hate to tell you, but basically every person I know that comes to town stays at 71st and memorial or, more likely, 31st and memorial. People book hotels off of websites for their vendor or places like travelocity. When you there, the hotel on 412 on the way to Sand Springs is listed as "Downtown"

One strange thing here that I don't see in other cities of Tulsa size or bigger - a cluster of hotels around the airport - yeah there are a couple, but no where near what I would expect.  There are always more hotels around an airport.  What's the deal?  Can't be that it is "too far" from "stuff" - probably better than half the time, I stay at the airport hotel just to be close to the take-off point when going home!  Even if the job site is dozens of miles away.

[Conan71]

Hate to tell you, but basically every person I know that comes to town stays at 71st and memorial or, more likely, 31st and memorial. People book hotels off of websites for their vendor or places like travelocity. When you there, the hotel on 412 on the way to Sand Springs is listed as "Downtown"

There are some dining options within the hotel/motel conclave at 31st & Memorial.  There's also plenty of places to eat in the 71st St. corridor.

Again, why would anyone book at a stand-alone property out in Sand Springs?  I use the maps function when I book online to make sure the property is near where I need to be.  I suspect other people do that as well.  Personally, if I had business downtown, I wouldn't book 10 miles away at 71st & Garnett when there are comparably-priced rooms downtown.

[rebound]

One strange thing here that I don't see in other cities of Tulsa size or bigger - a cluster of hotels around the airport - yeah there are a couple, but no where near what I would expect.  There are always more hotels around an airport.  What's the deal?  Can't be that it is "too far" from "stuff" - probably better than half the time, I stay at the airport hotel just to be close to the take-off point when going home!  Even if the job site is dozens of miles away.

Tulsa airport is both too far, and too close, at the same time .  I do the same thing for business travel. I get back close to the airport so that I can more easily get there the next morning flight out.  But usually there is a still a shuttle ride involved.  (I often overnight around DFW, but rarely stay on-airport at the Hyatt, instead I stay in the nearby but off-airport hotels.)  For Tulsa, it's only about seven miles (and fifteen minutes) from downtown to the airport.  Not worth staying out there without the surrounding restaurant/bar infrastructure.  I tell anyone who asks now to stay downtown when they have to overnight.

[sgrizzle]

There are some dining options within the hotel/motel conclave at 31st & Memorial.  There's also plenty of places to eat in the 71st St. corridor.

Again, why would anyone book at a stand-alone property out in Sand Springs?  I use the maps function when I book online to make sure the property is near where I need to be.  I suspect other people do that as well.  Personally, if I had business downtown, I wouldn't book 10 miles away at 71st & Garnett when there are comparably-priced rooms downtown.

Corporations use special rates and contracted travel agencies to book travel. If I try to book a hotel in Vegas, my work travel only gives me options like 5 miles from the strip. From a map, 71st and Garnett looks more inviting that downtown, and with a 15 minute travel time to downtown it looks like it's next door to visitors from most cities.

[Conan71]

From a map, 71st and Garnett looks more inviting that downtown, and with a 15 minute travel time to downtown it looks like it's next door to visitors from most cities.

They wouldn't be doing their employees any favors, especially if it means commuting to downtown via 169/BA expressway. Yikes!

When I was doing corporate travel, I always booked my own rooms and chose to stay close to where ever the rep lived I was working with that week.  Time is money in outside sales, so we didn't want to waste a lot of time commuting around.