Zoning Update Opportunity - Let's get rid of pole signs in Tulsa

[heironymouspasparagus]

Here are a couple examples of alternatives to pole signs.  This is what is meant by "monument" signs.  You'll see them at 41st and Harvard b/c the neighborhood fought tooth and nail for this small nicety when the PUD was proposed.


Or we could just stick with the status quo...

This is one of those things that could get seriously twisted in the wrong direction if the zoning powers that be get their hands on it.  Instead of 9 signs stacked in one location, we could (probably would given past experience...) get 9 signs sitting next to each other in a row on the ground.

[rdj]

The above ground power lines don't help that picture much.

[carltonplace]

The above ground power lines don't help that picture much.

or the lack of any sort of landscaping or sidewalk.

[patric]

Here are a couple examples of alternatives to pole signs.  This is what is meant by "monument" signs.  You'll see them at 41st and Harvard b/c the neighborhood

Ill take the opportunity to commend CVS for employing a glare shield on the light for their monument sign, but reluctantly point out that the fixture its attached to is a bit too much "brute force" for the sign it is illuminating.

One of the cool things about LED lighting is you can use fixtures tailor-made to the task, and not struggle to figure out how to get a one-size-fits-all HID floodlight to comply with zoning.

[saintnicster]

A baby pole sign!

[rdj]

A baby pole sign!

A drive thru dentist, sandwich shop and nail shop.  Just need a vape shop and the grand slam of strip mall occupancy is complete!

No offense, to our resident sandwich maker.

[davideinstein]

A drive thru dentist, sandwich shop and nail shop.  Just need a vape shop and the grand slam of strip mall occupancy is complete!

No offense, to our resident sandwich maker.

One of our fastest growing stores with a hard working GM that's married with a solid job to support his kid. It also employees around 25 other people. You can make all of the snap judgements you want...I see the tax revenue it generates and the opportunties it gives people to make a decent living. I wish that sign was higher so it would be visible from the highway.

[davideinstein]

That same sandwich shop put a store in the Thompson Building when no one else wanted to and completely renovated the old Dex's/Collective spot on 11th. Not only that, it's the only eatery in our central business district to take the risk to stay open until 9pm every night to help prevent it from being a complete ghost town. Maybe a vapor shop will do the same at the Philcade?

[davideinstein]

Bike lanes.  Now there's a scary proposition.  They have them all over Albuquerque.  The area we stay in Rio Rancho when we go through there is full of auto-centric big box development.  There's far too much turning in and out to make it safe for bikes in the bike lanes.  I have yet to see a white line bike lane that I'd feel more comfortable riding in rather than taking the driving lane itself.

I can list about 20 roads Downtown that could successfully put bike lanes in.

[Conan71]

I can list about 20 roads Downtown that could successfully put bike lanes in.

There's a time and place for everything.  I'd tend to agree there are places for them in downtown, but there is still no security for the guy in the bike lane going north on Boston when the dumbass reading his cell phone makes a right turn into or through his/her path eastbound onto 6th St.

[rdj]

One of our fastest growing stores with a hard working GM that's married with a solid job to support his kid. It also employees around 25 other people. You can make all of the snap judgements you want...I see the tax revenue it generates and the opportunties it gives people to make a decent living. I wish that sign was higher so it would be visible from the highway.

It isn't a slight on you, your sandwich shops or your employees.  It is a slight on 99% of strip mall owners in Tulsa.  AKA, those that fill their homogeneous, could be Anywhere U.S.A. strip mall developments that cater to cars with the same four tenant types rather than building unique structures that interact with pedestrians and fill them with a mix of local and national retailers.  The joke isn't on you, its on the guy that thinks he has a Class A retail space today in a good part of town that in ten years will have deferred maintenance in a degraded part of town because the virus of unsustainable growth has passed his area by.  Oh BTW in ten years it'll need a major overhaul because it's clad in Styrofoam covered by EIFS exterior, your sandwich shop has declined to take the third five year option on the lease because traffic is down and you need to move to the next hot area.

ETA:  Which is why the moment Jimmy Johns and Einstein Bagel moved into downtown I knew we'd "made it" over the first major hurdles in downtown development.  You can pull a list of what national chains will consider a zip code or certain part of town based on the demographics.  Ten years ago when McNellie's was opened the list was about five (Dollar Tree, etc), none of which were wanted downtown.  For the "creative class" the chains aren't welcome, for the hordes of workers that will hopefully follow them to take part in the energy that surrounds them the chains are awesome.  Case in point...Urban Outfitters coming to Brookside...derided by the hipster folks, loved by those of us that are desk jockeys that wish we could paint or play music all day.

Again, no slight on you or even chains.  We need national retailers to survive, the local guys can't do it all on their own.  In fact, I've told many people for years the moment chains arrive in a revitalizing area you know it is time to move to your investment focus to another area because you've successfully raised the demographics to fit an investment grade profile and that isn't a bad thing.

[davideinstein]

rdj - Fair enough. I apologize for being defensive. I take your view as well.

Our delivery base and growth will prevent us from having to relocate to a new area most of the time. I agree that a structure like the Thompson Building is better than our store at 41st, but there are literally no options like that around once you go even remotely South. If there were denser options we'd go there every single time. Our denser store are usually always busier in regards to the entire chain.

I just want to make sure we are always attacking the bad zoning laws and not the businesses or employees. I tend to be business-friendly in regard to signage because I see the correlation sales often and at the end of the day that's my livelihood. On the flip end, I'm naturally opposed to sprawl. The signs cited in this thread are still in sprawl areas so I don't necessarily see how getting rid of pole signs changes the bigger issue at hand.

[davideinstein]

There's a time and place for everything.  I'd tend to agree there are places for them in downtown, but there is still no security for the guy in the bike lane going north on Boston when the dumbass reading his cell phone makes a right turn into or through his/her path eastbound onto 6th St.

Round of applause on that.

[rdj]

The areas that have walkable density, Cherry St, Brookside, Utica are higher rent so it is harder to get the economics of sandwiches, coffee, etc to work.

[heironymouspasparagus]

rdj - Fair enough. I apologize for being defensive. I take your view as well.

Our delivery base and growth will prevent us from having to relocate to a new area most of the time. I agree that a structure like the Thompson Building is better than our store at 41st, but there are literally no options like that around once you go even remotely South. If there were denser options we'd go there every single time. Our denser store are usually always busier in regards to the entire chain.

I just want to make sure we are always attacking the bad zoning laws and not the businesses or employees. I tend to be business-friendly in regard to signage because I see the correlation sales often and at the end of the day that's my livelihood. On the flip end, I'm naturally opposed to sprawl. The signs cited in this thread are still in sprawl areas so I don't necessarily see how getting rid of pole signs changes the bigger issue at hand.

I don't often get close to your stores in Tulsa, but my traffic pattern takes my by a JJ in Moore at least twice a week.  Have been stopping there on what has become a fairly regular basis and it is always good.  (I wonder if they could do mobile delivery as I travel by on the interstate....will have to ask them)  While I like the regular bread, I really wish JJ would come up with a whole wheat version of it - with the same crunch/tooth to the crust.  THAT would make it a 3 or 4 times a week event for me!!  Would go out of my way in Tulsa to get that.