Armed Geezers and Tulsa's Militarized Police

[Vashta Nerada]

Accidental shootings by police happen.  

They occur more times than we realize because, in most cases, police never report them as "accidents."
A simple "he made a threatening move" is all any District Attorney needs to sign off on the paperwork (and dodge the ire of the corrupt unions).

Last week, however, the county Sheriff of Tulsa, Oklahoma showed remarkable hubris in concocting a scenario where a suspect in an undercover sting was shot by a deputy who claimed he thought he was shooting the fleeing man with a Taser.

"Oh, I saw the documentary 'Fruitvale Station', too" you might say, noting that the officer who shot a face-down man point-blank was charged with murder, so it would take a lot of nerve and confidence to pull something like that again, and expect different results.

But this was no ordinary Barney Fife who could be thrown into the sacrificial volcano.  Insurance Executive  Robert Bates, 73,  was the head of Tulsa Sheriff Stanley Glanz re-election committee, and a major donor.  

That... and the Tulsa Sheriff has a history of getting away with some amazing things.

Five years ago this week, Tulsa Police were on strike... or at least, conducting a slowdown due to budgetary layoffs as close to a strike as was possible.
The Tulsa County Sheriff's office saw an opportunity to woo skittish Tulsans with the offer that TCSO could do a better job of keeping the people safe.
The idea had traction, until a deadly stunt during a failed drug raid opened peoples eyes to what "safety" under TCSO might be like...


There were three people in the Rogues Motorcycle Club clubhouse in Tulsa when it was shock and awed at dawn on April 9th.

One of them, Russell Doza, was shot between seven and nine times and killed. He was shot in the side and the back. Two of the shots entered his neck around the base of his skull. Now the United States Attorney in Tulsa is trying to put the two survivors, Scott Lee Sollars and Albert Dee Ahlfinger, in prison for ten years each. Sollars and Ahlfinger are charged with being felons "in possession" of firearms.

Neither man possessed a firearm as most of the English speaking world understands the verb "possessed." American prosecutors routinely torture English as former President Clinton tortured English when he wondered "what the meaning of is is." Sollars and Ahlfinger are being prosecuted because they belong to the Rogues and they were there when Doza was murdered. Sollars and Ahlfinger were in the clubhouse with Doza. And Doza was killed because he was "holding a gun."  So Sollars and Ahlfinger were in a house with guns.

Assistant United States Attorney Joseph Wilson told the Tulsa World that his office "routinely reviews potential federal gun prosecutions and that these cases were selected because of the overall circumstances." Cynics probably notice that these cases are being prosecuted before the results of any investigation into Doza's homicide are announced. One friend of the Rogues characterized the gun charges as a "joke." It is not a very subtle attempt to intimidate the Rogues into shutting up about that fatal raid.

However, after a very long silence the arrest complaints and supporting documents do shed a little more light on what happened on April 9th.

Not Exactly T.S. Eliot

The affidavits that support the arrest warrants were written, or at least signed, by a Federal Bureau of Investigation Special Agent named Amy M. Kuhn. And, as is usually the case with these sorts of things the statements they contain are written in prejudicial and self-important cop-speak, which is the noise cops make when they want to sound important, professional and authoritative – like an actor playing a doctor in an aspirin commercial.

"On April 9, 2010," Agent Kuhn begins her tale, "members of the FBI Safe Streets Violent Gang Task Force and Tulsa County Sheriff's Office (TCSO) Drug Task Force executed a search warrant at the Rogues Outlaw Motorcycle Gang Clubhouse, 1826 North Kingston Place, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Due to considerable safety concerns, members of the TCSO Special Operations Team were requested to knock, announce, enter and conduct a safety clearing of the location prior to the execution of the search warrant. While an entry and safety clear of the location were completed..." Sollars and Ahlfinger were "removed from the premises" and not placed "under arrest" but merely "temporarily detained for (their) own safety and for the safety of the officers involved."

Kuhn's sworn statement includes the usual pro forma admission that these sworn statements always contain, which is that that some of what she swears is a true, is a lie of omission: "I have not included each and every fact known to me concerning this investigation."

The Two Search Warrants

For the last two months, the raid on the clubhouse was supposed to be a search for "marijuana and methamphetamine." There were actually two warrants issued on April 9th. They are both state warrants.

One was issued by Judge Wilma Palmer 30 minutes before the raid. In addition to marijuana and methamphetamine it also authorized a search for:  Instrumentalities, monies, records, financial records, proof of residency, drug notations and unexplained wealth from the sale of controlled dangerous substances, monies and or items consistent with the diversification of wealth, firearms, financial records and drug notation and residency papers. In general, this is language that is used to accomplish the seizure of all written, photographic, financial and computer records so police can copy them, add them to their accumulated "intelligence" and inspect them at their leisure to see what they can use.

The first warrant names a member of the Rogues who was not at the clubhouse and has not been arrested.

The second search warrant, issued after Doza's homicide and after the clubhouse had become a crime scene, sought to seize all the items in the first search, and: Human bodies, DNA, blood, impressions, trace evidence, firearms, ammunition, bullets including spent projectiles, cartridge cases, explosive devices (and) literature or documents associated with explosive devices or materials.

Two additional suspects, a man and a woman, are named in the second warrant and neither of them was in the Rogues clubhouse that morning either.

Fruit Of The Second Warrant

The only occupants of the clubhouse that morning were the two men charged this week, Ahlfinger and Sollars, and Russell Doza. Immediately after Doza's murder an FBI Agent named Charles L. Jones questioned both survivors about the location of any weapons in the clubhouse. Neither man was Mirandized yet both men cooperated fully with police. Both of them had just heard gunshots from inside the house and were obviously eager to prevent bloodshed.

Sollars told Jones he believed guns "might be" in the residence. Ahlfinger told the FBI Agent that he knew there was a shotgun behind the bar and that because he was a felon he never went behind the bar where the shotgun was kept. Ahlfinger also said he thought there was a gun in a locked safe in the house and that he thought there were probably numerous pocket knives in the house but no explosives.

Both warrants authorized a search for firearms. Implicit in Kuhn's affidavit is the allegation that neither the FBI nor the TCSO knew who was in the house at the time of the raid because they had to ask.  It is more likely – unless this is the worst FBI Field Office ever – that the police knew exactly who was in the house when the raid was conducted; that an informant knew the exact location of at least three of the firearms and may even have planted one of them in the clubhouse himself; and that the point of conducting the raid then was to contrive the charge with which Sollars and
Ahlfinger have now been arraigned.

Both men were arrested on state felony gun possession charges the day of the raid. The arrest report states that guns were "accessible to all subjects in the house." The state charges were dismissed earlier this week when the same charges were filed federally.

The four weapons recovered from the club house were the Harrington and Richardson 12 gauge shotgun Ahlfinger told Jones he could find behind the bar; a TEC DC9 ghetto blaster; an "SKS 7.62 rifle" which describes a broad range of bolt action and semi-automatic weapons but probably is meant to describe an antique, five shot, bolt action rifle; and a "Cobra Firearms .22 caliber handgun" which describes a very narrow range of firearms.

The Derringer...

Cobra makes two .22 caliber handguns. One fires .22 magnum rounds and the other fires .22 long rifle rounds. They are both derringers. The guns are specifically marketed to bikers as self-defense weapons.

The Cobra web site describes them as follows:

"Derringers have more than 100 years of popularity and they continue to top the charts in sales today! From the Cowboy Action Shooter to the Harley Davidson rider, there's a Derringer to fit your personality. Even Grandma likes a little Derringer in her purse. Cobra Derringers are beautifully handcrafted with a wide range of calibers and barrel lengths."

Actually they are all between three and a half and about four inches long, cost about $150 and are not very good guns. A common complaint is a heavy trigger. Another common complaint is that the trigger just falls out of the frame. Bikers like to carry them and sometimes brandish them but they are very rarely fired.

It is beginning to look like this will be the gun that investigators will try to put in Russell Doza's hand when he was killed.

The derringer might very well be connectible to Doza. He had a legal right to own a gun. There may not be a record connecting him to the weapon and it might still have been his gun. He might have bought it in a private transaction. Or it might also have been a "throw down gun" carried by one of the police officers on the scene.

...In Doza's Hand

The official account of Doza's death has always been that three Swat officers found Doza asleep on a floor and he picked up "a handgun," intending to murder them. So they killed him in self defense. But that account has never rung true. One of the reasons for the long official silence is that is that the official account has been flawed with obvious inaccuracies from the time is was first recited to reporters. For example, Doza was not lying on a floor. He was in a bed in a bedroom.

Russell Doza's hearing was very impaired. He was not quite deaf but he wore hearing aids and he used closed captioning when he watched television.

That explains how he was able to sleep through the SWAT raid. If he had known that a commando team had invaded the clubhouse he would have undoubtedly acted exactly as Sollars and Ahlfinger acted. He would have cooperated. But he was awakened and as he started to roll over, he was shot. The top secret forensic evidence is fairly clear about that even if it is too dangerous for the Tulsa World to report. He was sleeping on his stomach, as he always slept, and he never had time to roll all the way over.

So the gun that was "observed in plain sight" that Doza is supposed to have brandished at his killers was either a bolt action rifle, a TEC 9 or a derringer. And, no one who knew Doza has ever described him as the sort of a man who sleeps with a TEC 9. So the most likely weapon that police can put in Doza's hand is a tiny, inaccurate, shoddy, .22 caliber, single action, two shot pistol.

It will be interesting to read the cop-speak description of how three threatened cops in body armor felt when they saw that tiny gun –- or the reach for a hearing aid -- if there ever is a publically accessible official report. But the description of the great derringer danger will hardly be the most interesting passage. The interesting part will describe the five seconds before that.

Nobody knows exactly what happened in that bedroom that morning except the three shooters. But for almost two months there has been a consensus of informed speculation about what probably happened.

Apparently, this informed reconstruction of events goes, the three SWAT officers rushed into Doza's room. Russell Doza was sleeping so soundly the SWAT commandos walked right past him. Then they decided the room was clear and turned to go. They might have decided to poke around before they left or they might have just turned to go. They might have finally noticed Doza at that second or the next. They might have laughed at the sleeping man and poked him in the back with the muzzle of one of their guns. They might have pulled the covers down from around his head with one of their guns.

And, that was when Doza awoke. Or, maybe they never saw him until he awoke. It was a dimly lit room and as he rose to see what was going on he might have looked like a Haji who had been lying in ambush in the desert sands. He might have awakened with a start but whatever he did he scared at least one of the cops. One cop fired first then they all fired and Doza was dead.

And then somewhere either the derringer or the TEC 9 appeared. Finding, or planting, it does not matter, the gun would have given the shooters the out they needed. Finding a gun allows the cops to claim self defense.

It would probably be easier to put the derringer – rather than the TEC 9 – in Doza's hand because it is a kind of gun commonly carried in the biker world. But then, putting the derringer in Doza's hand raises the most haunting question of all. In the dimly lit room they saw the derringer but they did not see Doza. They saw the four inch gun. They did not see the six foot man.

They did not see Doza but they saw the derringer in his hand. And then, acting in great fear for their lives, they killed him.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Neither man possessed a firearm as most of the English speaking world understands the verb "possessed." American prosecutors routinely torture English as former President Clinton tortured English when he wondered "what the meaning of is is." Sollars and Ahlfinger are being prosecuted because they belong to the Rogues and they were there when Doza was murdered. Sollars and Ahlfinger were in the clubhouse with Doza. And Doza was killed because he was "holding a gun."  So Sollars and Ahlfinger were in a house with guns.


Both men were arrested on state felony gun possession charges the day of the raid. The arrest report states that guns were "accessible to all subjects in the house." The state charges were dismissed earlier this week when the same charges were filed federally.

The four weapons recovered from the club house were the Harrington and Richardson 12 gauge shotgun Ahlfinger told Jones he could find behind the bar; a TEC DC9 ghetto blaster; an "SKS 7.62 rifle" which describes a broad range of bolt action and semi-automatic weapons but probably is meant to describe an antique, five shot, bolt action rifle; and a "Cobra Firearms .22 caliber handgun" which describes a very narrow range of firearms.

Did you write all that?  Couldn't tell if maybe it came from another source, since there was no references.  Either way - couple things....

First, it doesn't matter how "most of the English speaking world understands the verb "possessed.""  The meaning of possessed in the legal world of gun possession after a felony conviction is that if you are in the house or building with a firearm - whether you know it or not - and these guys DID know it because they said so - you are guilty of possession.  You can't touch a gun and you can't be in proximity of a gun.  Federal AND state law.  And if they were felons, then they knew they were prohibited from being in the same room/building, because it puts them in possession - this was all explained to them previously - they knew!  (You aren't a lawyer are you?)

As for an SKS being a 'bolt action' rifle - that's idiotic.  Never in the 48 years since I shot my first SKS, or the 47 years since I owned my first SKS has anyone anywhere ever referred to an SKS as a bolt action rifle.  Unless they were just ignorant of what they are, or trying to disseminate and create some type of confusion - acting in an intellectually dishonest fashion.

SKS is the rifle that Mark Allen Eaton tried to kill the kids of some friends of mine that I have talked about in the past - the one where Kurt Glasco and Tim Harris' office cut a 'sweetheart deal' with that "Sense of Entitlement" group in Tulsa.

Here are pictures of SKS'.  And they have a 7.62 mm sized bore.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sks+rifle&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bDEjVaOFCILjoATczYFQ&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1408&bih=679

[Vashta Nerada]

SWAT Murdered Russell Doza
Mon, May 3, 2010

There was another SWAT murder last month in Tulsa. Russell Doza, 49, was the victim of the new American style of policing: Which is not so much malicious as it is a crude mix of self dramatization and brazen incompetence.

Doza is survived by a memo from the Oklahoma City office of the FBI that alleges that the Rogues Motorcycle Club intends "to retaliate for the shooting of one of the club members by the Tulsa County Sheriff's Office." He left behind hardly anything to show for his life except a motorcycle and a couple hundred mourning friends. And, of course a pool of blood on a floor.

Right now the Tulsa Police Department is investigating that puddle of blood out of existence. The leaked FBI memo is part of that clean up. The conclusion of the investigation will probably be that Russell Doza got what he deserved.

So far the cops are right about at least one thing. Somebody should retaliate. The Department of Justice should retaliate. The ACLU should retaliate. Anybody who can still manage to say, "truth, justice and the American way" without smirking should retaliate.

Who Died

Russell Doza grew up in Girard, in southeastern Kansas. His childhood was comparatively disadvantaged. He became estranged from his family and according to news accounts in Kansas he "moved around between several northeastern Oklahoma towns." He was featured in a story by the Tulsa World in 2001 about the Rogues bringing Christmas gifts and Christmas dinner to a severely injured Tulsa boy and his family. "Something we couldn't pass up," Doza told the paper. "The opportunity to help one needy child. That's what we're all about, anyway."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/bikers-become-boy-s-angels/article_1540af1b-adba-5e13-9e15-56c4c18e833d.html

He was convicted of drugs and he spent a year in prison before his conviction was overturned. And, he was disabled. He made his way with the help of his friends but he was slightly disabled.

High Risk Dynamic Entry

Doza died in the course of a "high risk," "dynamic entry" service of a search warrant for methamphetamine and marijuana. The choice to serve this warrant in this way was self-evidently specious.

Service of the warrant was "high risk" because it was executed on the Rogues' clubhouse. The Rogues, themselves, were considered dangerous because years of "intelligence" and official reports published by both state and federal report writers had alleged that they were dangerous. It is common in the prosecution and harassment of motorcycle clubs for experienced investigators to conflate accusation, generalization, suspicion and probable cause. And, sometimes cops just manufacture the unverifiable observations that result in "reasonable articulable suspicion" and the entrapments that lead to probable cause.

Sometimes the game between cop and cop victim is entirely semantic. Cops know what judges want to hear. Defendants do not. Usually what judges want to hear are specific words and phrases that turn accusations into magic spells.

Singing A Spell

The affidavit that supported the search warrant on the Rogues club house was a magic spell that was intended to make this service "high risk." The supporting affidavit and the internal, officially secret, paper trail within the TCSO describes the club house as fortified; predicts firearms on the premises; predicts the presence of military weapons and ordinance on the premises; describes what is officially "sophisticated counter-surveillance," which is to say that there were security cameras; and suggests that the club house might be booby-trapped.

All of this donkey-covering mumbo-jumbo was further supported by pretentiously documented surveillance including photographs and insider information from a "confidential informant." The warrant service was executed at "about seven-oh-six" in the morning, as a shaken police spokesman described it.

Technically this was a "knock and enter" warrant. Executing the warrant when everyone was asleep guaranteed that none of those inside the structure would have time to respond. And, that lack of response was half of the indispensable magic that allowed this SWAT team to make a "dynamic entry." Dynamic entry is the police euphemism for what they do when they break in through your doors and windows, toss "flash-bang," smoke and gas grenades around like waffle balls and routinely kill your pets.

The magic words that allow for dynamic entry in the execution of a search warrant for drugs are "preservation of evidence." The legal theory is that unless police enter immediately, occupants are likely to flush their "stash of pot" down the toilet. The public relations reason, which is all you are likely to read or see on television, is that local police officers must use military "shock and awe" against American citizens so that the police can be protected from the people.

The People's Court

Police everywhere have embraced new media so it is not surprising to discover a Facebook page titled "I Support The TCSO Deputies." After Doza's murder, comments on the page enthusiastically endorsed his execution. "Warrant Service Ends With One (Bad Guy) Dead," a headline announced. "My prayers are with the deputies who put their life on the line, and I am glad they made it home to their families. My prayers are with you," one fan of the page wrote.

"Good job guys!! Glad the good guys didn't get hurt," a pretty woman added.
Another woman agreed, "Great job guys. Stay safe out there!"

There are 833 fans of the TCSO and it seems not to have occurred to any of them that Russell Doza's life was at least as valuable as the lives of the men who killed him. Most of them would probably be shocked by the notion that rootless, drifting, self-sufficient, anti-authoritarian, anti-materialistic, generous, honorable Russell Doza might be more important to the salvation of America's soul that any number of Tulsa County Sheriffs. "Great job," another fan wrote about Doza's death. "God bless TCSO."

Ironically, many police cars in many parts of America still wear a slogan on their sides which reads, "To Protect and Serve." And many very young and very old Americans still think the slogan refers to the duty of police to protect and serve the public rather than the other way around. And, that is only one of many ideas about the mission and responsibility of Swat that has been turned on its head since a cop named Pat McKinley invented the Los Angeles Police Department Special Weapons And Tactics (S.W.A.T.) Team forty-five years ago.

SWAT Classic

The original concept of SWAT, during the quasi-revolutionary 1960s, was to provide Los Angeles with a viable response to snipers – like the handful of murderous psychopaths who popped up during that decade. SWAT was also trained to rescue hostages and provide an efficient response to situations like the Symbionese Liberation Army shootout. The SWAT concept "evolved," McGinley later wrote, to become a way "to reduce risk to the police forces involved, to the suspects and to the community at large."

McKinley went on to become Chief of the Fullerton, California Police Department. In 2002, he was one of the authors of an evaluation of SWAT deployments in California named after the State Attorney General at the time, a man named Bill Lockyer.

The Lockyer Report: "Was precipitated by a tragic death of a young male during a SWAT operation. This death, though accidental, compelled law enforcement to engage in critical self-analysis with respect to the utilization of SWAT teams. The Commission was deeply moved when this victim's family appeared at the Commission's public hearing. The Commission pledged to the family, to the Attorney General, and to the people of California that something constructive and lasting would come from their tragedy."

"Law enforcement operations are not military operations," the report states bluntly. "There is not an acceptable level of casualties, particularly of innocent bystanders." The point of Swat, its inventor believed, was to keep dangerous suspects from escaping while "trained hostage negotiators" used "verbal tactics." When a Swat team behaves professionally, the report argued, "Seldom are physical tactics necessary, and even then the actual firing of shots rarely occurs."

New Improved Swat Heavy Duty

In the eight years since the Lockyer Report was published in California, other states have remained blind to the excesses of SWAT.

There is no national consensus on what a SWAT team even is let alone how and when one should be properly used. There is not even a consensus in Tulsa County which has both a city SWAT team and a county SWAT team. Nationally, SWAT operational plans are often a ludicrous parody of the kind of cop speak Mike Judge satirized in "Idiocracy". Their deployment is casual. And, their tactics and weapons are military tactics and weapons that are appropriate if the idea is to find, engage and kill an enemy but absolutely wrong if the idea is to minimize conflict and keep the peace.

In practice, SWAT is how police departments bully and terrorize the American underclass, dissenters and other enemies of the police. SWAT team members shamelessly describe themselves as "elite warriors" and seem to want to emulate Delta Force Operators. Delta is the often glamorized, Special Forces Detachment that carries out covert and clandestine operations on behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Special Operations Command.

SWAT operations also provide inherently dramatic footage, for content hungry television news broadcasts. SWAT stories are easy stories. And, reporters who create these "news accounts" must either gulp and swallow real good or lose access to the only sources who will talk to them. The result has been a virtually unexamined escalation of SWAT atrocities.


In July 2008, the home a man named Cheye Calvo in Berwyn Heights, Maryland was stormed by a SWAT team because Calvo had thoughtlessly carried a package containing marijuana into his home. The package was handed to him by a policeman in disguise. But it was a drug bust so, of course, dynamic entry was allowed. It was a typically nasty raid.

But, Calvo happened to be the Mayor of Berwyn Heights. He was stubborn enough and politically connected enough to shame the State of Maryland into what is called "the Open SWAT Law." All Maryland police departments must now disclose statistical information about their SWAT raids. That disclosure has been reluctant but apparently complete and on February 24th, the Baltimore Sun published a summary of information about SWAT deployments collected during the final half of 2009. It is the first such disclosure in the country.

In six months, or 183 days, Maryland deployed SWAT teams 804 times. "Police forced their way into 545 houses," the Sun reported, "seized property in 633 of the raids, made arrests 485 times and discharged their weapons five times. In the six months studied, seven civilians were hurt but none killed, and two animals were injured and two killed."

"Of the 806 raids conducted in the six-month period, more than 94 percent stemmed from search or arrest warrants." Only six percent responded to bank robberies, hostage takings, barricades and the other kinds of emergencies Pat McKinley had anticipated when he imagined Swat.

Murdering Russell Doza

The way Russell Doza was disabled was that he was deaf. He almost died in an explosion. He survived but most of his hearing did not. He wore two hearing aids. He took them out when he slept.

So he slept through the dynamic entry. And when he died the only witnesses were police. Publically released accounts of the murder are remarkably consistent. None of the police participants have ever heard of the movie "Roshoman."  They have their stories straight.

Three SWAT team members, Deputy Lance Ramsey, Corporal Tom Helm and Sergeant Shane Rhames said they found Doza asleep on the floor. They are all experienced cops. Last year a local civic organization, the Sertoma Club – which "exists for the high and noble purpose of service to mankind'' – named Ramsey "Deputy of the year."

The brazen police spokesman, Shannon Clark, said that as Doza woke up he reached for a gun on a nearby bookshelf. A slightly embellished account describes how Doza actually picked up the hand gun and pointed it at officers. Police have not yet speculated on why Doza decided to commit suicide then, there and like that. Most people do not have that reaction to even the worst dreams. When most people outside a combat zone awake they usually expect to live at least through breakfast.

Doza's old friend Ramona Gregory told the Tulsa World that she thinks he was acting in self-defense. "Coming out of a dumb sleep, you might reach for something to protect yourself," Gregory speculated.

But, what happened might have been even simpler than that. It is plausible that as he was startled awake, Doza forgot about the gun in the next room. As the deaf man opened his eyes he saw three fantastic figures dressed up like children on Halloween. They were shouting commands at him that he could not hear. So without thinking, without being given time to think, he reached for his hearing aids. So he would know what these officers were commanding him to do. So he could comply with those commands. And, then the police killed him.

The subsequent search found no drugs.

[AquaMan]

Nasty accounts. Very unsettling. Those accounts are obviously part of a media series of stories. You should probably let us know so their credibility may be weighed against the TCSO's and FBI. Just sayin'.

And, I seriously take issue with your headline. Must you refer to a 73 year old as a "Geezer"? Its hard enough to age in a culture obsessed with youth, violence, religion, technology and shallow pop entertainment without being marginalized with such slang. It was a geezer with experience and wisdom that landed a jetliner on the Potomac saving all lives aboard when no one else thought it could be done.

It is precisely that kind of perjorative description that allows overzealous sheriffs to get no knock warrants to kill a sleeping biker "gang member" reaching for his hearing aids.

[Vashta Nerada]

Nasty accounts. Very unsettling. Those accounts are obviously part of a media series of stories. You should probably let us know so their credibility may be weighed against the TCSO's and FBI. Just sayin'.

And, I seriously take issue with your headline. Must you refer to a 73 year old as a "Geezer"? Its hard enough to age in a culture obsessed with youth, violence, religion, technology and shallow pop entertainment without being marginalized with such slang. It was a geezer with experience and wisdom that landed a jetliner on the Potomac saving all lives aboard when no one else thought it could be done.

It is precisely that kind of perjorative description that allows overzealous sheriffs to get no knock warrants to kill a sleeping biker "gang member" reaching for his hearing aids.

Point taken.  Could have chosen a better word to describe the appropriatness of using a 73-yo TPD washout for armed undercover work.

[Conan71]

My father-in-law was a reserve deputy in another county for about ten years.  He was telling me last night 73 is way too old for someone to be involved in the sort of LEO activity Bates was involved in.  Both from the physical aspect as well as the judgement and reactions.  Pop quit when he was 52 mainly because of the stress and he didn't feel he was physically up to it any more.  

Granted, there are plenty of 70 year olds who are very fit and sharp as a tack.  Just relating what someone who has done that sort of work and understands what it entails had to say about the incident.  

I really don't see how Kunzwieler can keep from filing manslaughter or negligent homicide charges on him.  The uniform and badge should not equate to automatic immunity from prosecution when you screw up and someone gets dead.

Yes, it appears it was accidental.  Bates didn't intend to kill him, but it happened because of Bates' action(s).

I'm also well aware of people being charged with and convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide for running a stop sign and killing a pedestrian or another motorist.  Same deal:  it may have been accidental, but that accident was caused by either the negligence or indifference of the person who ended up killing the other person.

[patric]

My father-in-law was a reserve deputy in another county for about ten years.  He was telling me last night 73 is way too old for someone to be involved in the sort of LEO activity Bates was involved in.  Both from the physical aspect as well as the judgement and reactions.  Pop quit when he was 52 mainly because of the stress and he didn't feel he was physically up to it any more.  

Granted, there are plenty of 70 year olds who are very fit and sharp as a tack.  Just relating what someone who has done that sort of work and understands what it entails had to say about the incident.  

I really don't see how Kunzwieler can keep from filing manslaughter or negligent homicide charges on him.  The uniform and badge should not equate to automatic immunity from prosecution when you screw up and someone gets dead.

Yes, it appears it was accidental.  Bates didn't intend to kill him, but it happened because of Bates' action(s).

I'm also well aware of people being charged with and convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide for running a stop sign and killing a pedestrian or another motorist.  Same deal:  it may have been accidental, but that accident was caused by either the negligence or indifference of the person who ended up killing the other person.

Someone at work equated it to storm-chaser tourism, where you have paid thrill-seekers putting themselves in the path of disaster.

[AquaMan]

My father-in-law was a reserve deputy in another county for about ten years.  He was telling me last night 73 is way too old for someone to be involved in the sort of LEO activity Bates was involved in.  Both from the physical aspect as well as the judgement and reactions.  Pop quit when he was 52 mainly because of the stress and he didn't feel he was physically up to it any more.  

Granted, there are plenty of 70 year olds who are very fit and sharp as a tack.  Just relating what someone who has done that sort of work and understands what it entails had to say about the incident.  

I really don't see how Kunzwieler can keep from filing manslaughter or negligent homicide charges on him.  The uniform and badge should not equate to automatic immunity from prosecution when you screw up and someone gets dead.

Yes, it appears it was accidental.  Bates didn't intend to kill him, but it happened because of Bates' action(s).

I'm also well aware of people being charged with and convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide for running a stop sign and killing a pedestrian or another motorist.  Same deal:  it may have been accidental, but that accident was caused by either the negligence or indifference of the person who ended up killing the other person.

The Force article that was linked was quite persuasive. It is as much the fault of poor personnel decisions and poor training as it is the reserve officer. He didn't force them to hire based on age discrimination, instead it seems to have been a political gift. Nor did they keep up with current training methods as the California forces did.

Consider this like airline pilots when they are involved in crashes. All the experts will say that most crashes are the result of a multiple of factors and failures. However, the airlines prefer to call it "pilot error".

[Conan71]

The Force article that was linked was quite persuasive. It is as much the fault of poor personnel decisions and poor training as it is the reserve officer. He didn't force them to hire based on age discrimination, instead it seems to have been a political gift. Nor did they keep up with current training methods as the California forces did.

Consider this like airline pilots when they are involved in crashes. All the experts will say that most crashes are the result of a multiple of factors and failures. However, the airlines prefer to call it "pilot error".

FAA mandates that airline pilots must retire at 65.  I suspect for the same reasons I'm implying Bates probably should not have been in such a position in the first place.

[Hoss]

FAA mandates that airline pilots must retire at 65.  I suspect for the same reasons I'm implying Bates probably should not have been in such a position in the first place.

Probably some of the same reasons that the FAA mandates that training new ATC personnel cannot start after the age of 30.

[AquaMan]

Though age is not really the issue here. Training is. Our TCSO and local police have not provided the training necessary for usage of these devices in conjunction with guns under stress conditions.

I drive a Kia. Like most small foreign cars, the headlight controls are on the turn signal stem. When I drive my wife's Ford Edge her windshield wipers are on the stem. When I drive her car I routinely reach to turn on the lights and am momentarily startled that the wipers come on and not the lights. The commercial vehicle I drive has an even different layout with the lights on the dash.

Under stress, without standardization or previous training under stress, cops are reaching for the wrong weapons. Cops of all ages. LA and San Francisco forces realized this and took appropriate action to retrain personnel and standardize weapons and location of weapons. We didn't.

This will be his defense and because of the liability the authorities may face, I doubt he will be charged.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Granted, there are plenty of 70 year olds who are very fit and sharp as a tack.  Just relating what someone who has done that sort of work and understands what it entails had to say about the incident.  

Better not let Walker, Texas Ranger hear this....

[cannon_fodder]

:deleted to start its own thread:

[Townsend]

Sheriff Comments on Deputy Involved Shooting



http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/sheriff-comments-deputy-involved-shooting-0

In his first comments on the fatal shooting of a man by a reserve deputy, Tulsa Sheriff Stanley Glanz calls it unintentional and an error. Beyond that, the Sheriff will only say the investigation by his office has been turned over to the District Attorney. He says the investigation conducted for his office shows procedures and policies were followed. He says his office always conducts a review after any officer involved shooting. Glanz admits the deputy involved, Bob Bates, is a long-time friend, but he says that hasn't meant any special treatment.

Has the incident prompted consideration of changes to the reserve deputy program? Glanz says he doesn't have any plans to do so, but the program will be reviewed at some point as part of regular reviews of operations.

[cannon_fodder]

FWIW, I posted a thread just for the TCSO shooting to keep that discussion focused:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21004.new#new