Downtown Development Overview

[heironymouspasparagus]

Leasing is what I was asking about at the end of one post - anyone know the going rate for leasing in Blue Dome area?   For a fully reworked space...   Or without where one does build out oneself....

$10 a foot?  20?  $4.63?

I answered my own question - it's about $1 a foot for similar buildings.  Or $1.5 a ft per month, or $19 a yr per foot in what is presumably class A office - Williams tower.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

What recent sales nearby?   I see 3 class b and c for sale within a few blocks - already 'renovated'...probably need some paint and polish...in the $150 to $250 per sq ft.  

What is it gonna cost in real dollars to get that place up to class C?   $100 a ft?  $150 a ft??  Would never make it to class B without tear down and start over, which destroys the whole ambiance thing.  Lets go with $100, since that gives your argument the best possible light.  $2.6 million to redo, plus $1 million original property value.  $3.6 million - the high end of your guestimate of value.

For rent, let's use the highest possible wild, out of control, number we can think of - about $1.5 a ft.  As available at the Williams tower now.  There are a couple places much closer to the same type of building that are $1 a ft, but gonna give you a break.  That's half a million a year....almost.  Let's round it up to make it easy.

Mortgage for a place like that probably would be a 15 yr at 3.9%, if lucky, on a $3.9 million investment.  Anyone got a better deal out there?   That's $28,700 a month, or $344,000 a year in payments.  Doesn't include any other expenses, like property  management (or you could do it yourself), maintenance, taxes, etc.  that leaves about $150,000 out of that rent for all those things.

Now, if you already have the $4 million and just wanna put it all somewhere right up front, ya gotta ask yourself, "Can I do anything with $4 million cash that will give me a better return than less than 4% per year - the cost of mortgage alone??  THAT is the question, not all these ridiculous fantasy numbers  you are slinging around.  It is YOU who has no experience with real estate.   Or any other kind of money management/financial planning, apparently.

There are quite a few recent sales in the ranges I listed. Just go look at recent property sales over the last 2/3 years in the area.

Your numbers are very far off. It should not cost nearly that much to renovate a property like this for residential which would be the wisest decision (Potentially have some retail and maybe office on ground floor, or make spaces that can work for either like Metro did). Depending on its condition, it could be anywhere from $50-$75 or $100+ only if it's an extremely high end remodel (or purely office/commercial) which would put the end value much higher than $3-$4 million. I stand by my numbers above. They're rough estimates, but a ~$1/$2M basic reno of that place done carefully could get you basic lofts that bring in $300k+/year and raise the market value close to $3M.


Maybe you're right and I have no idea what I'm doing. Maybe I should sell all of the investment properties I've had renovated and stop accepting all the rent. I should let my tenants know they're all overpaying and my numbers are magical and unrealistic, even though the numbers I used on here are pretty conservative compared to what many are able to get in the Tulsa area.

[heironymouspasparagus]

There are quite a few recent sales in the ranges I listed. Just go look at recent property sales over the last 2/3 years in the area.

Your numbers are very far off. It should not cost nearly that much to renovate a property like this for residential which would be the wisest decision (Potentially have some retail and maybe office on ground floor, or make spaces that can work for either like Metro did). Depending on its condition, it could be anywhere from $50-$75 or $100+ only if it's an extremely high end remodel (or purely office/commercial) which would put the end value much higher than $3-$4 million. I stand by my numbers above. They're rough estimates, but a ~$1/$2M basic reno of that place done carefully could get you basic lofts that bring in $300k+/year and raise the market value close to $3M.


Maybe you're right and I have no idea what I'm doing. Maybe I should sell all of the investment properties I've had renovated and stop accepting all the rent. I should let my tenants know they're all overpaying and my numbers are magical and unrealistic, even though the numbers I used on here are pretty conservative compared to what many are able to get in the Tulsa area.

Or look at what is for sale now and take a 10% discount - will be very close, too.

Really ??   And what vast reservoir of real estate are you basing that on??   There is a residential builder in OKC who advertises homes at more than $85 per ft on TV.  I am suspicious, but will give them the benefit of the doubt - still very close to my $100 number.   What do you think it will take for residential to be successful in that building - something other than "high end"??   Formica and Masonite ain't gonna cut it and that is the only way it would be even close to that cheap.  Would love to hear some binding quotes from any builders out there who would do that for $50 per ft.  May have to move on that myself, if so!   Any takers??

You can see from Google Earth that the roof is shot - missing in significant areas - so that means the floor under it is also gone.   Even Morton Buildings wants $32 per foot for just a slab and shell - no insides, fixtures, utilities, at all.  Any builders out there who would be willing to commit to just a new second story and roof for less than about $25 a foot??   Would love to hear from you - I got a barn and house that need to be built!!

You are standing by Fake Numbers with no real clue other than just something you pulled out...   It ain't that tough to talk to real builders and see what this type stuff is gonna cost...you should try it some time!

In last week, I  have talked to 2 residential builders about doing house buildings.   One was at $135 per foot.  The other at about $145 per foot.  If the slab in that building was pristine, that is probably close to the ball park number you would see.  My bet is the bottom floor slab would take several $ per foot to get usable.

If you really do have all that real estate experience, with the numbers you are slinging around here, then you are taking the 'slum lord' approach, cause it ain't high end anything.  And certainly not in that area of town.   Two new places just opened up for rent in Broken Arrow by Citadel Homes - small investment houses in a small area.  Nothing special at all with them...mediocre, low end building, but I bet they came in at least $70 a foot - probably more.  Unless you do all the work yourself, or hire lots of illegals, and don't really care about long term survivability of the building or neighborhood...  Your home renovation is nowhere near the same thing as building out a large commercial space like this one.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Or look at what is for sale now and take a 10% discount - will be very close, too.

Really ??   And what vast reservoir of real estate are you basing that on??   There is a residential builder in OKC who advertises homes at more than $85 per ft on TV.  I am suspicious, but will give them the benefit of the doubt - still very close to my $100 number.   What do you think it will take for residential to be successful in that building - something other than "high end"??   Formica and Masonite ain't gonna cut it and that is the only way it would be even close to that cheap.  Would love to hear some binding quotes from any builders out there who would do that for $50 per ft.  May have to move on that myself, if so!   Any takers??

You can see from Google Earth that the roof is shot - missing in significant areas - so that means the floor under it is also gone.   Even Morton Buildings wants $32 per foot for just a slab and shell - no insides, fixtures, utilities, at all.  Any builders out there who would be willing to commit to just a new second story and roof for less than about $25 a foot??   Would love to hear from you - I got a barn and house that need to be built!!

You are standing by Fake Numbers with no real clue other than just something you pulled out...   It ain't that tough to talk to real builders and see what this type stuff is gonna cost...you should try it some time!

In last week, I  have talked to 2 residential builders about doing house buildings.   One was at $135 per foot.  The other at about $145 per foot.  If the slab in that building was pristine, that is probably close to the ball park number you would see.  My bet is the bottom floor slab would take several $ per foot to get usable.

If you really do have all that real estate experience, with the numbers you are slinging around here, then you are taking the 'slum lord' approach, cause it ain't high end anything.  And certainly not in that area of town.   Two new places just opened up for rent in Broken Arrow by Citadel Homes - small investment houses in a small area.  Nothing special at all with them...mediocre, low end building, but I bet they came in at least $70 a foot - probably more.  Unless you do all the work yourself, or hire lots of illegals, and don't really care about long term survivability of the building or neighborhood...  Your home renovation is nowhere near the same thing as building out a large commercial space like this one.

You keep saying commercial. That's a whole other ballgame. I'm talking residential and those are the price ranges we've paid. We're the GC's so probably save a lot versus just hiring a company which are really jacking up prices now due to demand. Also, new builds are far more than renovating.

Our places are gorgeous. They're all among the nicest rentals on the market, all in good areas. Some of the newer ones are arguably the nicest in the area, like something from an HGTV show or out of an Interior Design magazine. Most have granite or similarly-nice looking counters. They all have brand new electric, HVAC, new plumbing lines and most everything else. Maybe it's just being on the side of the business we're in, we get better prices from contractors.

Still typical prices were closer to $50/square foot for renovating back when this lady was apparently getting tons of interest on her property, which is what I was talking about: renovating it around 10 years ago and having all of that rent ever since.  I'm not talking about the cost/return of doing it now. This was a theoretical discussion of lost-opportunity by holding on to it, losing all that potential rent. Another big bonus I hadn't thought of til you argued about my pricing being way to low is that she would've gotten a huge discount on construction cost in comparison to now.

[Townsend]

Valley National Bank, In the Raw planning downtown locations

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/valley-national-bank-in-the-raw-planning-downtown-locations/article_3dda241e-821c-588c-a3f8-c404790e5da2.html

Across from Ballpark. This thread has digressed so badly that the World is scooping us.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Valley National Bank, In the Raw planning downtown locations

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/valley-national-bank-in-the-raw-planning-downtown-locations/article_3dda241e-821c-588c-a3f8-c404790e5da2.html

Across from Ballpark. This thread has digressed so badly that the World is scooping us.

Still too much glass, but it looks like they are trying!   Like the design!   

[heironymouspasparagus]

You keep saying commercial. That's a whole other ballgame. I'm talking residential and those are the price ranges we've paid. We're the GC's so probably save a lot versus just hiring a company which are really jacking up prices now due to demand. Also, new builds are far more than renovating.

I suspect that building would be best used as combined comm/res.  Some sort of shop/store on the bottom, with res on the top floor.   How about an interior courtyard type design, like a two story Embassy Suites approach.  Middle area of bottom floor surrounded by shops opening to that common area?   I know...it sounds like a mall, sort of...


Would also like to see more of the old style 5 or 6 story types with bottom floor retail and the rest residential.  And get some decent design done on them!!   NOT all glass!!   At least have a chance of making a building work for climate control!!

[SXSW]

This should be good

http://www.tulsaworld.com/weekend/foodreview/james-beard-award-winning-chef-to-open-seafood-restaurant-in/article_6906381d-7c32-5aae-a5f2-1cbe742da477.html

[AdamsHall]

This should be good

http://www.tulsaworld.com/weekend/foodreview/james-beard-award-winning-chef-to-open-seafood-restaurant-in/article_6906381d-7c32-5aae-a5f2-1cbe742da477.html

Looks like a good get for Blue Dome.  Surprised they are going to change the building that much.

[carltonplace]

Still too much glass, but it looks like they are trying!   Like the design!   

Anyone know why they dug one story down and then filled it back in?

Was noticing yesterday how much our skyline is changing. You can see Archer/Boston Common/Condos and the new HIE Hotel On Archer and the new Indigo Hotel on Elgin all making a difference.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Anyone know why they dug one story down and then filled it back in?

Was noticing yesterday how much our skyline is changing. You can see Archer/Boston Common/Condos and the new HIE Hotel On Archer and the new Indigo Hotel on Elgin all making a difference.

Probably to get to more solid base.  Did they fill it back with gravel/aggregate?   Rock isn't all that deep downtown and ya don't wanna have that kind of weight sitting on a layer of dirt like in a sandwich.  It's like when you make s'mores - smushing the dirt (marshmallow) between two graham crackers (building/rock).



 

[swake]

Anyone know why they dug one story down and then filled it back in?

Was noticing yesterday how much our skyline is changing. You can see Archer/Boston Common/Condos and the new HIE Hotel On Archer and the new Indigo Hotel on Elgin all making a difference.

I think they filled in an old basement.

[cannon_fodder]

When they dug the hole I saw an old brick wall to the east (photo) and a concrete wall (still visible now) on the south side of the lot.  I'm guessing they are from separate buildings, each goes down at least 3-4 feet. 

Maybe they saw them on a survey and needed to verify integrity, maybe they needed to infill around them, maybe there was plumbing or drain that needed to be moved?  I don't really know, but I'm guessing it comes down to foundation stability for the new building.

[DTowner]

Development proposed for former OTASCO building downtown
By Rhett Morgan Tulsa World

A rendering shows a 16,000-square-foot multitenant and restaurant development planned for a former downtown OTASCO location at Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue.

A map included in documents submitted to the Tulsa Development Authority shows a plan for the alleyway next to a former OTASCO location at Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue, which the developer would like to refurbish with Technology TIF money. Courtesy

A Tulsa developer wants to invest about $2.5 million to convert a former downtown OTASCO store into a 16,000-square-foot multitenant and restaurant development.
The building, at the northeast corner of Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue, is being used as a carpentry shop.

At Thursday's regular meeting of the Tulsa Development Authority, Southbridge Equities LLC will ask the TDA to authorize spending $205,000 of Technology TIF funds for an alley renovation between Cincinnati and Detroit avenues from First to Second streets, providing a new, one-block long, 20-foot wide drive lane and pedestrian walkway. The concrete is proposed to be terra cotta red, and the alley would be fully lighted.

"In keeping with the recommendations of Tulsa's Walkability Study, I also intend to convert the surface parking lot on the east side of the building into a landscaped courtyard with outdoor dining, and I will be adding retail spaces that front onto the alley," Jeff Scott, of Southbridge Equities, wrote in a July 25 letter to TDA commissioners. "For this to be successful, the alley, itself, needs to become a pedestrian-friendly amenity, which will link the west side of the alley to the existing restaurant and retail space to the east side of the alley.

"Second, it is my desire that this project become a prototype for what alleys can become in our downtown, and with this proposed template, more projects like this will emerge throughout downtown, converting alleys from service corridors, filled to capacity with trash dumpsters, to pleasant, pedestrian-friendly passageways."

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/development-proposed-for-former-otasco-building-downtown/article_3f04025a-2d5e-5c92-ad19-6eaf3bba287b.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Development proposed for former OTASCO building downtown
By Rhett Morgan Tulsa World

A rendering shows a 16,000-square-foot multitenant and restaurant development planned for a former downtown OTASCO location at Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue.

A map included in documents submitted to the Tulsa Development Authority shows a plan for the alleyway next to a former OTASCO location at Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue, which the developer would like to refurbish with Technology TIF money. Courtesy

A Tulsa developer wants to invest about $2.5 million to convert a former downtown OTASCO store into a 16,000-square-foot multitenant and restaurant development.
The building, at the northeast corner of Second Street and Cincinnati Avenue, is being used as a carpentry shop.

At Thursday's regular meeting of the Tulsa Development Authority, Southbridge Equities LLC will ask the TDA to authorize spending $205,000 of Technology TIF funds for an alley renovation between Cincinnati and Detroit avenues from First to Second streets, providing a new, one-block long, 20-foot wide drive lane and pedestrian walkway. The concrete is proposed to be terra cotta red, and the alley would be fully lighted.

"In keeping with the recommendations of Tulsa's Walkability Study, I also intend to convert the surface parking lot on the east side of the building into a landscaped courtyard with outdoor dining, and I will be adding retail spaces that front onto the alley," Jeff Scott, of Southbridge Equities, wrote in a July 25 letter to TDA commissioners. "For this to be successful, the alley, itself, needs to become a pedestrian-friendly amenity, which will link the west side of the alley to the existing restaurant and retail space to the east side of the alley.

"Second, it is my desire that this project become a prototype for what alleys can become in our downtown, and with this proposed template, more projects like this will emerge throughout downtown, converting alleys from service corridors, filled to capacity with trash dumpsters, to pleasant, pedestrian-friendly passageways."

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/realestate/development-proposed-for-former-otasco-building-downtown/article_3f04025a-2d5e-5c92-ad19-6eaf3bba287b.html

Then where are the service corridors gonna be??  Ya don't have to like dealing with service related topics, but ya do have to deal with it.


That is stupid.  Rest of it might work...  Too much glass, but that seems to be the way it goes.