Downtown Development Overview

[tulsabug]

The dome would be a really cool area to have a big dinosaur.

Maybe turn this into the Route 66 Museum and then do some mixed-use development on the parking lots - retail ground floor, parking garage, student housing, etc.

I think we're all just drinking and daydreaming at this point! 

[ComeOnBenjals]

The Next Level Bar and Grill, formerly Joe Momma's is undergoing work inside. Looks like they're gutting it, not sure what they're working on.

Similarly, the old El Guapo is being worked on inside... they looked like they had it down to the studs.

[shavethewhales]

Next Level seemed to only operate for a month or two. I think they opened in early 2020... Tough break. That space seems cursed though. That's three establishments that have failed to make it work there since the building was remodeled.

The old El Guapo's is a headscratcher. They repainted the building in 2020, then recently repainted it again with another color scheme. I think they were originally going to re-open El Guapo's with a refreshed menu but now they've decided to do something completely different.

What's the deal with the Rib Crib? It's been closed for over a year. Speaking of things sitting closed, there's no signs of life at the old Enso/IDL ballroom. I figured they were ready to move onto a new concept after kicking all that business out, but so far nothing. I know it's owned by the same people that owned the juicery. They did an amazing job on that space at least.

[SXSW]

The Next Level Bar and Grill, formerly Joe Momma's is undergoing work inside. Looks like they're gutting it, not sure what they're working on.

Similarly, the old El Guapo is being worked on inside... they looked like they had it down to the studs.

I believe one of these will be an Asian steakhouse called Kyubi.

I'm also interested in what they do with Enso/IDL Ballroom.  Those were fun spots that brought a lot of people into the Blue Dome on weekends, hopefully they are reopened but maybe with different branding. 

[Tulsa Zephyr]

Heard from a reliable source that the old Guapo's will be some sort of chicken restaurant. 

[TheArtist]

Frankly I would not open a business downtown.  Just went down there this last week to check out the old haunts. Dead, it was so sad. Perhaps other parts of downtown are different, but I doubt by much.

For a time all the buzz was about downtown, and the people of Tulsa were so supportive of all the new businesses going in etc. But you know as these things go, the buzz will eventually wear off and you have to have a downtown that's "Real" and can make it on its own.

Plus, I know what the future is and they are not building it there.

[LandArchPoke]

Frankly I would not open a business downtown.  Just went down there this last week to check out the old haunts. Dead, it was so sad. Perhaps other parts of downtown are different, but I doubt by much.

For a time all the buzz was about downtown, and the people of Tulsa were so supportive of all the new businesses going in etc. But you know as these things go, the buzz will eventually wear off and you have to have a downtown that's "Real" and can make it on its own.

Plus, I know what the future is and they are not building it there.

Hate to break it to you but Boston Avenue was never a good location for the type of retail store you operate. Downtown is far from dead, but just like every downtown it has a variety of users and a variety of areas. Every downtown (yes even places like Chicago, San Fran, NYC, etc.) is like this... go to Wall Street/Lower Manhattan area on a Saturday night and guess what - it's "dead" too. Yet at noon Monday-Friday it's one of the busier places in Manhattan. Financial districts are not conducive to retail like your store - same reason that parts of Manhattan has and still does struggle keeping many types of retail places open, outside of what caters to business services. Last time I was in NYC and went past the 9/11 Memorial Hermes and most of those store were closed on the weekends and the Westfield /Brookfield centers were ghost towns. Go there anytime during a weekday between sunrise and early evening it's not. Does that mean Lower Manhattan is a failure and "dead"? No. It gets a little old seeing people repeat narratives about Tulsa that are true of cities 10x our size that are supposedly poster childs for what you think 4th & Boston is supposed to be when it reality it's not much different.

There was never enough retail space that could be built out in that area to ever get a critical mass going... the pop up shops were great but it was never going to be permanent and it's unfortunate some people were mislead about the reality of what types of retail would survive in that area of downtown. Your store would have done much better near Guthrie Green and that's about the only part of downtown inside the IDL that's remotely close to any sort of critical mass of similar retail spaces and has enough events to support your type of retail. A street like 11th was always going to be a far better location given it's far easier to see your store, easier to park near it, far more traffic goes past your store now, and there's a critical mass of similar types of retail developing now. While Boston Avenue has far more sq. ft. of buildings than 11th ever would, 11th has far more street level space that can be retail than Boston Avenue ever will. The finite amount of retail space on Boston and near it will always be more valuable to Jimmy Johns type of services than it ever will for other types of retail like a clothing store, etc. and in a capitalist system they are going to be the ones landlords rent to because they pay more rent.

Downtown is not dead, and it's more than ok that different parts of the city and different parts of downtown function differently on different days and times. Frankly, you are still in downtown now you're just not in "the IDL" which isn't 100% of downtown - your store is less than 2,000 feet from being inside the IDL. I remember you saying you never want the IDL removed and ironically that is a huge mental and physical barrier to ever getting more types of retail like your store to be successful downtown for a variety of reasons. In order for retail to be more viable you do need more visibility/accessibility - no one can shop at your store when they drive by on freeways. People in Midtown have Brookside, Utica Square, Cherry Street, and now 11th Street/Route 66 are all accessible long before they'd ever get to stores in the IDL. What anchor is in the IDL to get them there? None really, so your type of retail is going to survive essentially off event type traffic which is why some have been somewhat successful in the Arts District north of the railroad tracks. Until something like say the Pavilions in Denver type of development is built on a parking lot or two inside the IDL to get a critical mass, some types of retail are just not going to exist downtown and that doesn't mean downtown is a failure the Pearl, 11th, Cherry Street, Uptown, etc. are all part of downtown and part of it's 'ecosystem' but are far more conducive to your type of retail. It's not realistic to think that every part of downtown should be packed from sunrise to 2am... it never will be and that's a false realization of what an urban city is, because yes even Paris, London, etc. have large swaths of their financial districts and other urban parts that are "dead" just like 4th & Boston on weekends and weekday evenings.

We should stop referring to inside the IDL as only downtown because downtown goes beyond the IDL boundaries. Everyone considers Automobile Alley & the area around St. Anthony's in OKC 'downtown' but it's the same distance from Devon Tower that your store now is from Williams/BOK Tower there's just not a massive highway loop that creates a barrier between them.     

[SXSW]

Agree on the Arts District likely being the most established retail area downtown.  I'd like to see more built up along Archer and Main but know that will come.

The most intriguing area though is the East Village especially the Frankfort corridor between 2nd & 5th.  There is an organic mix of retail tenants that will be bookended by Santa Fe Square to the north.  Tying in the various "pockets" around Blue Dome and East Village will make the entire neighborhood feel more cohesive. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Seems like a lot of places are going in as "formerly where 'fill-in-the-blank' was".   That does not sound really thriving to me....more likely getting by maybe?

[shavethewhales]

lol, do you people actually go downtown at all? It's still a busy, burgeoning place, albeit with natural ebs and flows and not all corners are going to be super busy.

I was downtown this weekend as usual and McNellies was so packed at 2pm that I gave up finding a place at the bar and came back a few hours later after walking around and visiting some other establishments. There were people all over the place - lots of portraits being taken this time of year.

^We have indeed been discussing a few spots on this thread where things are going in after other things failed, but that's not an indication that downtown is failing. The places that failed had major issues with their business model, eg: the new Joe Momma's not knowing how to cook a pizza, or the IDL ballroom being forced out despite good business. Obviously there is still demand for the space though since new businesses are moving in.

There's obviously a ton of stuff going in downtown right now with several large buildings being remodeled, a massive new apartment complex about to open, a huge new office tower about to go on the market, new parking garage and office going up as we speak, more apartments on the way next to it, and then the whole PAC block coming soon.

[DowntownDan]

I think the areas south of the BOK Tower need more residential before retail will follow. I like the view of the tower down Boston, but it really is unfortunate that it is a huge barrier between parts of downtown. I wish they could find a way to reconnect Main at least through the resource center, but I know it isn't feasible. Maybe work on the pedestrian infrastructure around the PAC if and when the new development happens in the parking lot.

[SXSW]

I think the areas south of the BOK Tower need more residential before retail will follow. I like the view of the tower down Boston, but it really is unfortunate that it is a huge barrier between parts of downtown. I wish they could find a way to reconnect Main at least through the resource center, but I know it isn't feasible. Maybe work on the pedestrian infrastructure around the PAC if and when the new development happens in the parking lot.

Reconnecting Main between 1st and 3rd would be a huge undertaking but would really solve a lot of the connection issues between the CBD and Arts District. 

[TheArtist]

Hate to break it to you but Boston Avenue was never a good location for the type of retail store you operate. Downtown is far from dead, but just like every downtown it has a variety of users and a variety of areas. Every downtown (yes even places like Chicago, San Fran, NYC, etc.) is like this... go to Wall Street/Lower Manhattan area on a Saturday night and guess what - it's "dead" too. Yet at noon Monday-Friday it's one of the busier places in Manhattan. Financial districts are not conducive to retail like your store - same reason that parts of Manhattan has and still does struggle keeping many types of retail places open, outside of what caters to business services. Last time I was in NYC and went past the 9/11 Memorial Hermes and most of those store were closed on the weekends and the Westfield /Brookfield centers were ghost towns. Go there anytime during a weekday between sunrise and early evening it's not. Does that mean Lower Manhattan is a failure and "dead"? No. It gets a little old seeing people repeat narratives about Tulsa that are true of cities 10x our size that are supposedly poster childs for what you think 4th & Boston is supposed to be when it reality it's not much different.

There was never enough retail space that could be built out in that area to ever get a critical mass going... the pop up shops were great but it was never going to be permanent and it's unfortunate some people were mislead about the reality of what types of retail would survive in that area of downtown. Your store would have done much better near Guthrie Green and that's about the only part of downtown inside the IDL that's remotely close to any sort of critical mass of similar retail spaces and has enough events to support your type of retail. A street like 11th was always going to be a far better location given it's far easier to see your store, easier to park near it, far more traffic goes past your store now, and there's a critical mass of similar types of retail developing now. While Boston Avenue has far more sq. ft. of buildings than 11th ever would, 11th has far more street level space that can be retail than Boston Avenue ever will. The finite amount of retail space on Boston and near it will always be more valuable to Jimmy Johns type of services than it ever will for other types of retail like a clothing store, etc. and in a capitalist system they are going to be the ones landlords rent to because they pay more rent.

Downtown is not dead, and it's more than ok that different parts of the city and different parts of downtown function differently on different days and times. Frankly, you are still in downtown now you're just not in "the IDL" which isn't 100% of downtown - your store is less than 2,000 feet from being inside the IDL. I remember you saying you never want the IDL removed and ironically that is a huge mental and physical barrier to ever getting more types of retail like your store to be successful downtown for a variety of reasons. In order for retail to be more viable you do need more visibility/accessibility - no one can shop at your store when they drive by on freeways. People in Midtown have Brookside, Utica Square, Cherry Street, and now 11th Street/Route 66 are all accessible long before they'd ever get to stores in the IDL. What anchor is in the IDL to get them there? None really, so your type of retail is going to survive essentially off event type traffic which is why some have been somewhat successful in the Arts District north of the railroad tracks. Until something like say the Pavilions in Denver type of development is built on a parking lot or two inside the IDL to get a critical mass, some types of retail are just not going to exist downtown and that doesn't mean downtown is a failure the Pearl, 11th, Cherry Street, Uptown, etc. are all part of downtown and part of it's 'ecosystem' but are far more conducive to your type of retail. It's not realistic to think that every part of downtown should be packed from sunrise to 2am... it never will be and that's a false realization of what an urban city is, because yes even Paris, London, etc. have large swaths of their financial districts and other urban parts that are "dead" just like 4th & Boston on weekends and weekday evenings.

We should stop referring to inside the IDL as only downtown because downtown goes beyond the IDL boundaries. Everyone considers Automobile Alley & the area around St. Anthony's in OKC 'downtown' but it's the same distance from Devon Tower that your store now is from Williams/BOK Tower there's just not a massive highway loop that creates a barrier between them.    

You are correct on many points. but I am not sure that our store would have done much better in the Arts District either.  When we were doing ok on Boston Ave. it was because we got tourists, office workers, and people coming down for the other restaurants and shops.  As the other shops left, our sales went down. But in the Arts district, and even the Blue Dome, I hear from other retailers and galleries, that even though there are a lot of people during events and going out to eat... they aren't shopping. There aren't enough shops there and in a concentration, to make it a retail destination. And though you occasionally get a lot of foot traffic in the stores, they are there as an "aside" before or after they go to an event or to eat/go to the bars, etc.

When we were doing our best in that Downton spot there was Okie Crowe, Bison & Bear, Made Indie Emporium, a couple of other small shops, plus the Gelato place right across the street from us and we were promoting our Tulsa Art Deco Museum across the street which by itself brought in 14,000 visitors/customers per year. And of course Elote and the other restaurants were nearby and Mayfest helped as well.

But rather than go in the direction of putting in more shops, the property owners started booting them out and putting in ground floor office/service type entities. Course then covid hit and put the nail in the coffin for that area as the office workers vanished.

Again, we did look at places in the Arts District and Blue Dome but we would have lost the large amount of office workers. There was no place to do our museum there. And the evening crowd was not a retail buying crowd but rather a dining/bar crowd.  

The best mix for retail is about 70% shops, 25% restaurants/bars 5% service. And that's the approximate ratio for both malls and main streets.

Someone on another post on here mentioned... If there were more residential in the Deco District that would make retail viable.

Thats not how it works.  Perhaps for a grocery store, for people have to eat every day.  

Brookside, Cherry Street, the Mall, don't just serve the people who live in the area, they serve people throughout the city and even the suburbs to some extent. And even then Brookside and Cherry Street are not the best spots for retail.

Where we are now is not the best spot but its doing ok.  So far averaging over 1,000 "orders" (that's not customers or #of items sold, nor yet the big holiday shopping season) per month.  What helps us is
1. Our past customers knowing about us and visiting us.  
2. New customers finding us because we are on a main arterial.
3. Tourists finding us because we are listed as a local "attraction" (including the museum component) and because we are on Route 66 and next to Buck Atoms another attraction.

Take any of those away and we would suffer.

But we do suffer because we are again not in a shopping/Main Street type district.  I cringe as the shop spaces around us fill up and someone comes in to introduce themselves... Hey we are moving in across the way and putting in an insurance company, or another hair salon, etc. lol.  Great for them, but hurts my potential sales. Would be better if there were more shops or even more restaurants. But I can't control that any more than I could downtown. (though I did manage to convince a friend to open the gallery next door and the property owner to hold out for a restaurant in the end space of our building which thankfully they did) You roll the dice and do your best in Tulsa as there is no "Main Street" type zoning like they have in downtown Denver for instance.


IF the shop does well this Christmas and next year, then I hope to finally buy enough land and get some investors to build my own Main Street and Attractions so that I don't have to put up with the random bullpucky, but can instead control every aspect of every detail. I will show you a Downtown DECOPOLIS that is busy morning till night every single day.  

[patric]

Reconnecting Main between 1st and 3rd would be a huge undertaking but would really solve a lot of the connection issues between the CBD and Arts District.  

Milwaukee has been changing things up a bit but I seem to recall at one point it looked like we were driving right underneath downtown buildings.

[ComeOnBenjals]

IF the shop does well this Christmas and next year, then I hope to finally buy enough land and get some investors to build my own Main Street and Attractions so that I don't have to put up with the random bullpucky, but can instead control every aspect of every detail. I will show you a Downtown DECOPOLIS that is busy morning till night every single day.  

Love the ambition! Will definitely do some Christmas shopping at your store this year