1551 Cherry St Buildling

[TheArtist]

 I have always liked the idea of having several dedicated busses just for Downtown, Pearl, Cherry Street, Utica Square, Brookside, loop or two.  Also, I don't think anything has to go down Cherry Street, you could have a stop on Utica and a stop on Peoria with one of the bus loops and easily walk in to where you want to go. People attract people and the more people there are walking up and down Cherry Street the stronger the businesses will be and the more desirable the area will become. 

As for the busses I would have them look differently than the other city busses so that people can easily see that "oh, these are different" and have the route and busses promoted separately so they don't get lost in the rest of the "the city bus routes and times are lousy" mix.

As for parking on side streets. I would have no problem with people parking on my street.  It's just the way it is in most cities, and is especially prominent in areas with more desirability and density.  You can however alleviate that by either building more parking or adding better transit.  I would rather go the latter route.  There needs to be a certain amount of congestion to get people to consider changing their habits and creating new ones, aka, going from cars to using transit.   

[Conan71]

As for parking on side streets. I would have no problem with people parking on my street. 

Within reason.  Loud drunks at 2am is no picnic.  But if you move a few houses off Brookside or Cherry St. you realize this is a distinct possibility on any given weekend. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

I have always liked the idea of having several dedicated busses just for Downtown, Pearl, Cherry Street, Utica Square, Brookside, loop or two.  Also, I don't think anything has to go down Cherry Street, you could have a stop on Utica and a stop on Peoria with one of the bus loops and easily walk in to where you want to go. People attract people and the more people there are walking up and down Cherry Street the stronger the businesses will be and the more desirable the area will become. 

As for the busses I would have them look differently than the other city busses so that people can easily see that "oh, these are different" and have the route and busses promoted separately so they don't get lost in the rest of the "the city bus routes and times are lousy" mix.

As for parking on side streets. I would have no problem with people parking on my street.  It's just the way it is in most cities, and is especially prominent in areas with more desirability and density.  You can however alleviate that by either building more parking or adding better transit.  I would rather go the latter route.  There needs to be a certain amount of congestion to get people to consider changing their habits and creating new ones, aka, going from cars to using transit.   

In my mind, the whole Cherry street route would be to get from parking downtown to maybe one or two (three??) locations along the Cherry street corridor - Utica and Peoria would likely pretty well cover it.  I have no problem with a few blocks walking and many I know think likewise.

Absolutely - shuttles/trolleys/rail - whatever form it takes...make it different, distinctive, decorative, and unambiguous as to exactly what it is and where it goes.  Maybe get someone artistic (hint, hint) to provide designs that form an immediate visual impression that says "Downtown Loop".  "Cherry Street Loop".   "Next Big Thing Loop".  Maybe get Fellers 'on board' to provide the decals for the buses?

Clear, concise, concentrated, and cheap enough that people will always choose that over fighting the parking battle closer to the action.  Couple bucks ($2 or 3 maybe??) per person for all day riding?  Maybe a $5 park/ride ticket bundle??  We as a society seem to appreciate, understand, and like 'bundles'....

What is the passenger count at the State Fair shuttle stations now?  This would most likely be at least as attractive as that.  I came dangerously close to saying, "Make it free for a few months to get people started..."  Then thought better of it.  A compelling price/value offering must attract people on its own, or it will never work.
So many ideas....so few resources to pursue...

[AquaMan]

Go for it Land Arch. Keep the attitude too, that will work well with the folks who own this house who may be providing some parking for your clients, http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Tulsa-OK/22152030_zpid/20859_rid/days_sort/36.268082,-95.542946,35.950218,-96.213112_rect/10_zm/0_mmm/?view=map

That's from adjacent Swan Lake. They pay nearly $4000 in taxes and likely to increase upon sale. Chat with them about their rights and your rights and your "facts". Tell them the city will be better off if they share their neighborhood because of the 'regional average sales per foot" which is of course an average that includes Woodland Hills, Tulsa Hills, Jenks, 101st and Yale and Owasso. Don't mention the poor sales per foot on Cherry Street cause that fact don't matter. Oh, and be sure to tell them everyone in NYC, LA, and Georgetown are all over this concept. Offer them a fine California Chablis. Good luck.

Here's a true story based on facts you cannot slip slide away from. 18th and Boston. 1970. The Lousianne Restaurant, a small Safeway, a DX gas station, a nice little liquour store, a nice little coffee shop (before they were de riguer), a great little Mexican Restaurant, a dry cleaners and a fire station. Some art galleries, a barbeque joint, a paint store, Mapco and a walk up little convenience store. Not infill according to the pics I've seen from Beryl Ford's collection. Most of that was still there til the mid 70's. Parking was plentiful because it served this neighborhood and people walked, or drove from that surrounding neighborhood along with some downtowners passing through. Enlightened downtowners visited for lunch.

But the neighborhood started to change in the early 70's. Hippies, bars, white flight because Central High school was the district. The quaint little area that served Maple Ridge, Morningside and downtown was the victim of the interdispersal loop, oil cycles and yp's then known as boomers. Suddenly all that was left was the firestation, the dry cleaners, the DX and vacant buildings. Those vacant buildings attracted bars and restaurants that no longer could make their living off the hood. They were meat markets that drew from all over town. Cherry which known as 15th was still in stasis. Suddenly parking was a problem and spilled over into once sedate streets. Police sirens, drunks urinating, passed out women on lawns was common. Gunshots, fights, driving across lawns too. All the stuff humans do when they party in an entertainment district. Each morning residents picked up beer bottles, fast food bags and cigarette buts. People put bars on their windows. The commissioners wanted to run an expressway through the area to facilitate suburban traffic into downtown. They had little interest then in what happened there.

An enterprising businessman decided to open a denturist operation in one of the buildings that didn't have a parking lot since it was designed for walk up traffic. Two parking spots for himself and one other. Twelve employees used our street daily along with parents dropping off and picking up for nearby Lee School. The garbage men couldn't make it through because of that and often we didn't get pickup. The denturist yelled at me once when I complained with the exact words you used, "YOU DON'T OWN THIS STREET!"

But wait. It doesn't end there. This down cycle cause by infusion of free parking for businessmen would not, could not last. It had indeed stunted home prices in the area. Bars on windows do that. Traffic and drunks do that too.  As a real estate agent who had seen this cycle before I knew that and gambled on purchasing a home on this street with the knowledge that my city, my fellow (wealthy) neighbors and responsible people would not let an important historic neighborhood die. I got the house cheap. The street had become half rental. In fact much of the area was. Others gambled as well. We became "gentrifiers"! Had it not been for the city backing us up we could have been an expressway. The denturist was forced out (zoning violation), the cops cracked down on petty theft, drunk drivers and public drunk. We got signs erected that limited parking times so the school traffic could work. The home prices started to inch up. The city repaved the streets. We got Historic Preservation status. Realtors started showing the area again. Young people started to move in, replace renters and start families. TPS changed our high school boundary to include Edison. We had block parties. 18th and Boston started to attract better tenants though some cheesy bars still come and go.

The cycle returned us to where we once were. Now, there once again is a fine restaurant, a fine wine bar, a great barbeque joint, a nice little coffee shop, a great little deli, a fire station, a refurbished Phillips 66 gas station turned into a hairdresser, art galleries, and a dry cleaners. We survived the disease you offer. My home has increased in value 600%. Retail sq. footage rates gone up that much? Tax man is happy. The city is happy.

So, knock yourself out. I could use some good rental property over by Cherry.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Here's a true story based on facts you cannot slip slide away from. 18th and Boston. 1970. The Lousianne Restaurant, a small Safeway, a DX gas station, a nice little liquour store, a nice little coffee shop (before they were de riguer), a great little Mexican Restaurant, a dry cleaners and a fire station. Some art galleries, a barbeque joint, a paint store, Mapco and a walk up little convenience store. Not infill according to the pics I've seen from Beryl Ford's collection. Most of that was still there til the mid 70's. Parking was plentiful because it served this neighborhood and people walked, or drove from that surrounding neighborhood along with some downtowners passing through. Enlightened downtowners visited for lunch.

But the neighborhood started to change in the early 70's. Hippies, bars, white flight because Central High school was the district. The quaint little area that served Maple Ridge, Morningside and downtown was the victim of the interdispersal loop, oil cycles and yp's then known as boomers. Suddenly all that was left was the firestation, the dry cleaners, the DX and vacant buildings. Those vacant buildings attracted bars and restaurants that no longer could make their living off the hood. They were meat markets that drew from all over town. Cherry which known as 15th was still in stasis. Suddenly parking was a problem and spilled over into once sedate streets. Police sirens, drunks urinating, passed out women on lawns was common. Gunshots, fights, driving across lawns too. All the stuff humans do when they party in an entertainment district. Each morning residents picked up beer bottles, fast food bags and cigarette buts. People put bars on their windows. The commissioners wanted to run an expressway through the area to facilitate suburban traffic into downtown. They had little interest then in what happened there.

I lived at 17XX S Cincinnati Place in the early 70's for a couple years.  Lovely little duplex where the trail is now.  Third house from the corner, IIRC, right across from the one with the little white picket fence.  It was an old place, but had a new coat of paint and was a very comfortable little house to live in.  I could live there now and be perfectly happy.  Loved the neighborhood!!  Even today, it is kind of a 'shock' to drive through there and see the differences - amazing what long term memory will do for you.

I was one of those 'hippies' you are talking about...

[AquaMan]

More often referred to as "damn hippies".  

I'm glad you mentioned the State Fair shuttles. They are doing quite well. I drove a route last year. This year they are adding another pick-up location (if forget the address). Since the city made parking in the neighborhood more difficult and actually towed the cars parking on easements, it has eased the burden on them and made the shuttles feasible.

Funny how those shuttles appeared when parking was restricted.

[heironymouspasparagus]

More often referred to as "damn hippies". 

Yeah....that was me....

[LandArchPoke]

More often referred to as "damn hippies".  

I'm glad you mentioned the State Fair shuttles. They are doing quite well. I drove a route last year. This year they are adding another pick-up location (if forget the address). Since the city made parking in the neighborhood more difficult and actually towed the cars parking on easements, it has eased the burden on them and made the shuttles feasible.

Funny how those shuttles appeared when parking was restricted.

So are we talking about Swan Lake, "SoBo", Ranch Acres, Utica Square, or what? I also have no clue what "disease" I'm offering? People using public infrastructure? What you want is massive surface parking lots to accommodate all these commercial spaces employees and customers – basically suburbia – so they never have to park in front of your house or walk by on that sidewalk either.

I have a hard time believing you are actually reading what I'm writing. I get that this is person to you since you've had issues with people disrespecting your personal property (which I don't think is ok in the slightest). I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. The Swan Lake house is not even remotely close to Cherry Street, so I don't see a correlation to it and what we are talking about, sorry.

I don't think parking should be a free for all. The city does need to regulate it. Like you said, if a trash truck can't get down the street then one of two things need to happen – either make the street a no parking zone for several hours on the days trash gets pick up or make one side of the street no parking. This works and is enforced in all major cities. Many major cities have entire neighborhoods during the spring – fall that have no parking allowed on one side of the street once a week to allow for street cleaners to come through. People who park on easements, in front of driveways, on your yard, etc. should never be ok. But if they are parked in front of your house – not blocking anything and not blasting music or pissing in your yard – there is no reason not to allow that. That is what 99% of the people who use commercial areas do.

Drunks – well that's just what you have to deal with when you live close to a bunch of bars. Conan hit the nail on the head. If you live a stones throw away from a commercial district you have to expect traffic, people, noise, and other things that come along with it.

The problems that our urban neighborhoods went through were not because of people parking on the streets because there wasn't enough parking. The issues were due to suburbanization – all the highway construction and abandonment of our core neighborhoods. This happened everywhere. Walk through any major city in America and you'll find bars on windows and doors.

Sales per sq. ft. includes all those half empty shopping centers in north, east, west Tulsa too. That's why it's called an average. Yes, it does include Tulsa Hills, Woodland Hills, etc. Their average sales per sq. ft. are closer to $500-600 per sq. ft. Cherry Street does not have a low average sale per sq. ft., if it did you would not see Chipotle, Panera, Mi Concina, Le Madeline, and other non-local chains leasing up space as quickly as it comes available. They don't go to places like East Tulsa do they?

To top of the irony – you talk about restricting parking around the fairgrounds and how that brought about mass transit. If we were to think about the fairgrounds as you suggest we do Cherry Street we should be bulldozing the houses along 21st and 15th street because, well they have to provide parking for their customers and employees right? There's no other solution but providing parking right? Oh, but aren't you the one driving a shuttle that offers a different solution? Irony.

If the city never implemented parking requirements along Cherry Street and allowed people to park on the streets, we wouldn't have as many surface parking lots destroying those historic craftsman homes. We would also have a great need for mass transit options – streetcar, brt, etc. Right now, because we are mowing over our tax base to provide parking because you don't want them by your yard, we can't support mass transit and we are making it more and more difficult to provide you with services like a Police officers who could patrol that area at night and arrest those people pissing in your yard. But since we are destroying our tax base with public parking, we can't afford to do that.

[swake]

So are we talking about Swan Lake, "SoBo", Ranch Acres, Utica Square, or what? I also have no clue what "disease" I'm offering? People using public infrastructure? What you want is massive surface parking lots to accommodate all these commercial spaces employees and customers – basically suburbia – so they never have to park in front of your house or walk by on that sidewalk either.

I have a hard time believing you are actually reading what I'm writing. I get that this is person to you since you've had issues with people disrespecting your personal property (which I don't think is ok in the slightest). I think you need to relax and take a deep breath. The Swan Lake house is not even remotely close to Cherry Street, so I don't see a correlation to it and what we are talking about, sorry.

I don't think parking should be a free for all. The city does need to regulate it. Like you said, if a trash truck can't get down the street then one of two things need to happen – either make the street a no parking zone for several hours on the days trash gets pick up or make one side of the street no parking. This works and is enforced in all major cities. Many major cities have entire neighborhoods during the spring – fall that have no parking allowed on one side of the street once a week to allow for street cleaners to come through. People who park on easements, in front of driveways, on your yard, etc. should never be ok. But if they are parked in front of your house – not blocking anything and not blasting music or pissing in your yard – there is no reason not to allow that. That is what 99% of the people who use commercial areas do.

Drunks – well that's just what you have to deal with when you live close to a bunch of bars. Conan hit the nail on the head. If you live a stones throw away from a commercial district you have to expect traffic, people, noise, and other things that come along with it.

The problems that our urban neighborhoods went through were not because of people parking on the streets because there wasn't enough parking. The issues were due to suburbanization – all the highway construction and abandonment of our core neighborhoods. This happened everywhere. Walk through any major city in America and you'll find bars on windows and doors.

Sales per sq. ft. includes all those half empty shopping centers in north, east, west Tulsa too. That's why it's called an average. Yes, it does include Tulsa Hills, Woodland Hills, etc. Their average sales per sq. ft. are closer to $500-600 per sq. ft. Cherry Street does not have a low average sale per sq. ft., if it did you would not see Chipotle, Panera, Mi Concina, Le Madeline, and other non-local chains leasing up space as quickly as it comes available. They don't go to places like East Tulsa do they?

To top of the irony – you talk about restricting parking around the fairgrounds and how that brought about mass transit. If we were to think about the fairgrounds as you suggest we do Cherry Street we should be bulldozing the houses along 21st and 15th street because, well they have to provide parking for their customers and employees right? There's no other solution but providing parking right? Oh, but aren't you the one driving a shuttle that offers a different solution? Irony.

If the city never implemented parking requirements along Cherry Street and allowed people to park on the streets, we wouldn't have as many surface parking lots destroying those historic craftsman homes. We would also have a great need for mass transit options – streetcar, brt, etc. Right now, because we are mowing over our tax base to provide parking because you don't want them by your yard, we can't support mass transit and we are making it more and more difficult to provide you with services like a Police officers who could patrol that area at night and arrest those people pissing in your yard. But since we are destroying our tax base with public parking, we can't afford to do that.

Look, he's grumpy and he wants you to get off his lawn. Is that so hard?

[AquaMan]

Yeah, that's right. Its my fault cause I'm just a grumpy old fart and I just don't understand. Carry on.

Always fun to get the insights of the next blind and furious generation. No doubt my fathers gen said that about our grandiose ideas.

[Red Arrow]

What I would do is build a large parking structure (400-500 spaces) on the orange highlighted parcel below. This would be part of a mixed-use development with retail and multifamily (hotel would be great here too). Capture the Sales and Ad valorem taxes to pay for the structured parking. Once you do this, get rid of any parking requirement on Cherry Street. Work with the owners of the existing surface lots and pair them with commercial brokers in town. Pre-lease and infill the holes (blue/red highlighted areas). Build small multifamily units as well between the retail along 15th and the houses to the north and south to transition between the two.

When the infill starts to happen, use value capture mechanisms. Essentially freeze the rate of taxes we get now from there and use the extra infill sales taxes and ad valorem taxes to pay for the streetcar through the area.



Transition time is the kicker. Especially as narrow as Cherry Street is now. What you'd probably have to do is build one direction at a time. As you are putting in the rails for the westbound trains get rid of the westbound on street parking temporarily to keep from cutting off traffic flow. Once the westbound tracks are in, do the same for the eastbound tracks.

If we could connect Utica Square to downtown via Cherry Street, there is no reason we couldn't see infill in Utica Square is either. Build a few more structure parking garages on the south end of Utica Square behind Flemmings and P.F. Chang's and fill in a few of the surface spaces towards 21st Street and make the center more urban.

Reasonable reply.
Thank you.

[Red Arrow]

Here's a true story based on facts you cannot slip slide away from. 18th and Boston. 1970. The Lousianne Restaurant, a small Safeway, a DX gas station, a nice little liquour store, a nice little coffee shop (before they were de riguer), a great little Mexican Restaurant, a dry cleaners and a fire station.

I remember the Lousianne.  Our family went to dinner there a few times.  Maybe more but I went back to college and then the Navy.

[davideinstein]

People should listen to what LandArchPoke is preaching.

[heironymouspasparagus]

So....use the massive amount of parking near TCC - less than a mile from entry to Cherry St.  Put in a system of reliable, frequent shuttles at prices low enough to be much better than the aggravation of driving through the traffic and trying to find a parking place....

And routes to the north into middle of downtown, too.

Rinse,
Repeat...

[Breadburner]

Bumgarner aint gonna let go of that property.......