Trump

[TeeDub]

I the good old days someone would have beat the hell out of the campaign manager for man handling a women. In the really old days her husband would have shot the bastard. So maybe we are pussies for just arresting the guy.

In the good old days she wouldn't have had the opportunity as she would have been in the kitchen baking a pie.

Yes, more restraint should be shown.   It was careless on his part and he overreacted.   Most likely he had been asking people repeatedly to step back and momentarily lost his composure.   (Or at least that is the excuse when other people do it.)

[Conan71]

Relocating? Without saying a word to her he grabbed her arm and yanked her backwards with enough force to leave bruising. If anyone "relocated" your wife that way, you'd have a serious problem. I doubt you'd give two craps about who their boss was.

A secret service agent, and all law enforcement agents, have a defense to battery if it is a lawful use of force. Donald Trump is under secret service protection, they didn't feel the need to remove this woman. The professionals in charge of his safety didn't touch her, a campaign manager did. He can assert defense of others as a defense... but in that there is zero evidence that sh was assaulting anyone it would fail.

And since when does the secret service protect presidential candidates from credentialed members of the press? I call shenanigans. They thought a Breitbart reporter was going to assault the Donald, so they had to assault her first? Stupid secret service not figuring that out, thank God the Donald's people had it covered!

And by the video she wasn't impeding anyone. Not that it would matter if she did. A Trump employee still wouldn't have the right to physically move her.

This woman was doing her job, asking a presidential candidate a question, when she was assaulted. By definition, that's what happened. Again, you can argue that the you don't like the law. That it should be legal to use physical force against people you don't like unless that force causes them to bleed (or whatever). But the law is clear. Even if you blow cigarette smoke in my face, it can be classified as a battery.

You are also right, such laws aren't universally enforced and they shouldn't be. But when it is high-profile and caught on camera, it is much more likely to be enforced. This same outcome would have happened if an NFL player or NBA player did this to some woman in public. If high profile people can assault women, why can't I? Or the same thing would happen if I yanked on a high profile persons arm in a similar manner.

Here is what the guy said before he realized there is a video tape of the incident:

The guy apparently assaults so many people he doesn't remember any particular incident. He said the same thing before video surfaced of him manhandling some protester.

erfalf:

These aren't kids on a playground. These are adults at the highest levels: a national reporter and a leading presidential candidate. I'm not advocating for ticky tack assault charges carte blanch - but if it acceptable for them to use physical force to get what they want, why not everyone else?

I agree that, with kids, you have to allow them to work it out by themselves to a large extent. If you knock down my card house, I kick your shins. But again, these aren't kids... what's she supposed to do - slap the Donald? And are you saying that by trying to ask The Donald a question she "was asking for it?" I know that's the law The Donald would advocate for, but that isn't the law. She can say anything she wants and they have no right to touch her. Think you should be able to assault someone for asking tough questions? Go change the US Constitution.

- - -

What's the alternative? Trump employees can use physical force against the press and the law just doesn't apply to them?

I damn well guarantee you that if Trump was walking past me and I reached out and yanked his arm hard enough to cause him to go backwards and leave a bruise --- I would be arrested. And I'm sure I would be sued by Trump. Same if I did this action to his campaign manager.

Why do they operate under different rules?

I the good old days someone would have beat the hell out of the campaign manager for man handling a women. In the really old days her husband would have shot the bastard. So maybe we are pussies for just arresting the guy.

Sorry, I still don't see the correlation between people crowding a presidential candidate or celebrity and getting yanked, relocated, pushed, et. ad nauseum and something like this happening in the "real" world.  If my wife was stupid enough to crowd a celebrity or political hack er candidate and she got shoved or pulled she could deal with it and wouldn't be pressing charges over a three finger bruise.  Chances are the guy would be sporting a bruise or two in a very painful place had he pulled that on MC.

Without being there it's hard to make a judgement call.  I didn't hear any audio.  Was she repeatedly asked, along with others, to get back and did not oblige and was finally pulled back as a last resort?  Was his campaign manager calling her a bull dyke when he yanked her arm out of spite?  I think context matters here and why she was "battered" in the first place.

Call me callous and insensitive, but this has been blown way out of proportion.  The only reason it even matters on the national stage is because he's Trump's campaign manager and likely the only reason anyone even thought to file charges in the first place. 

[Townsend]

The only reason it even matters on the national stage is because he's Trump's campaign manager and likely the only reason anyone even thought to file charges in the first place. 

It matters.

When was the last time you were looking at a situation and thought to yourself, "It'd be okay if that guy grabbed me hard enough to bruise."?

Or..."I think it'd be alright, in this situation, that that dude could cause me bodily pain."?

I don't give a rat smile if he's with Trump.  Trump takes a dump just like anyone else.  He's nothing special...just well known.  It's sad people think that's a good enough reason for one person to hurt another.

'merica

[heironymouspasparagus]

'merica

That's  'murica....

[cannon_fodder]

Conan:

I fundamentally disagree on many levels. I tend to ascribe to the broken windows theory to a certain extent.

A politician nor celebrity has no more right to assault someone than anyone else. Nor can they have their minions assault people for them. In spite of what our society may say, celebrities do live in the "real world."

And I don't need to be there. There is a video showing what happened, as well as witnesses and photos of the bruising. So far every form of evidence supports the victims statement - and tends to show the defendant's statements were all lies. Even if they asked a member of the press twenty times to not ask Mr. Trump any more mean questions, they still don't have a right to assault her. You'll not she has been a reporter for a very long time and has somehow managed to not be assaulted in all of that time. Now--- there might be circumstances that explain why the guy lost his temper and assaulted her, but it doesn't change the facts. You can't get angry and assault a woman in public.

And I don't think it has been blown out of proportion. The guy violated a very clear statute and the statute was enforced. It shouldn't be a major deal - it shouldn't entail jail time or any life altering consequence. This certainly wasn't an aggravated assault. When this happens to other people it doesn't get near the attention (with that I agree), but rest assured --- it happens. The examples I gave above (yanking Mrs. Conan on the trail, at a bar, or whatever) could result in the arrest of the offender, particularly if it was on tape. If there is no prior record the guy gets a few days of community service and court costs and the charge is deferred (as if it never happened).  If they move for a year of jail time or something, then we've hit la-la land.

I would expect the same thing to happen if Bernie, Hilldog, or Cruz people assaulted someone.

Also... thanks for a civil discussion. This board has been getting pretty good at discussing controversial topics in civil and productive manner. On the internet even!

[cannon_fodder]

Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.

2008 - Trump backs Hillary for President
2012 - Trump gives Democrats money
2015 - Trump runs for GOP presidential nomination
August - Trump says he will not support the GOP nominee if it isn't him. He says this repeatedly. He says it publicly. He says it during a national debate.

It is then pointed out that certain states, Virginia, NC, and South Carolina may not let him on the ballot unless he signs a similar State pledge.  He suddenly starts changing his tune.

September - Trump signs a written pledge to support the GOP nominee, no matter who it is

"I am totally pledging my full support to the GOP."

"I have no intention of changing my mind on this."

"I see no circumstances under which I would tear up that pledge."

"The best way for the Republicans to win is if I win the nomination and go directly against whoever [Democrats] put up," said Trump. "And for that reason, I have signed the pledge."



NPR runs a story prognosticating the recent turn of events...

2016, March - Trump changes his mind and again says he will only support the GOP nominee if it is him.

- - - - -

I think such pledges are stupid. I think political parties are stupid. But this is another example of Trump saying or taking part in whatever lie is expedient at the moment to advance Donald Trump. I assume he will just insist he never signed it and his followers will have a theory on how his actions, tweets, words, and signed documents aren't really what happened.

I heard the Libertarians got on the Oklahoma ballot. No idea who they are running... they probably have my vote just as a protest.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Trump is such a class act!   All of it low...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/video-compares-trump-and-obama-talking-about-women-and-we-cant-stop-crying_us_56f29d0ce4b0c3ef52174a7b

[AquaMan]

Cannon, you must also think poorly of Cruz and Kasich since they both waffled on the same pledge? Trump isn't putting on anybody. We all know that he is an opportunist, a narcissist, and a bully. In short, a successful businessman!

Seriously, he has let loose the frustration that the powerless carry with them in a big duffel bag. For instance, other than lawyers or college graduates who have had a few hours of law, common folk don't consider his  surrogate's actions as tantamount to assault and battery. And that is who he represents. 

[RecycleMichael]

Also... thanks for a civil discussion. This board has been getting pretty good at discussing controversial topics in civil and productive manner. On the internet even!

Yo momma

[Conan71]

And I don't need to be there. There is a video showing what happened, as well as witnesses and photos of the bruising. So far every form of evidence supports the victims statement - and tends to show the defendant's statements were all lies. Even if they asked a member of the press twenty times to not ask Mr. Trump any more mean questions, they still don't have a right to assault her. You'll not she has been a reporter for a very long time and has somehow managed to not be assaulted in all of that time. Now--- there might be circumstances that explain why the guy lost his temper and assaulted her, but it doesn't change the facts. You can't get angry and assault a woman in public.

I seriously doubt the campaign manager intended to inflict harm on anyone, it's a crowded situation and he's trying to safely get his boss out of the building.  Until we can find empirical evidence he gets off on yanking women and beating them, that's the assumption I will go with since I did not personally witness the incident.  We don't know if he thought she was an annoying fan wanting a selfie (looks like a phone in her hand) or if she's been asking when he's going to kiss and make up with Megyn Kelley for the 10th time and The Donald said "Sic her!".  If Lewandowski was in full adrenaline mode, he may not have even been aware of how hard he pulled on her arm or maybe he had a few too many and was on a black-out drunk, who really knows but him?  Why he lied about the incident for a month is beyond me.  If he hangs out with The Donald, I'm sure he's somewhat of a D-bag.  

This is what I take exception with and it's probably because of the way I would have reacted.  I also assume at times that not everyone else on the planet has had common sense bred out of them:  You've got a crush of people surrounding The Donald while he's trying to leave.  He's now a high value target as a presidential candidate.  If you are going to crowd in, it should come as no surprise you might end up getting shoved or pulled out of the way if you are trying to get up next to him.  Try that with Obama or even Hillary and see what happens.  There absolutely is a different protocol in approaching a president or presidential candidate with something in your hand pointed at that person than there is to approaching you or I.  Perhaps they need better security in place with barricades to keep people back from The Donald now and this won't happen again.

If I were in the situation and ended up with some light bruises, it would have never crossed my mind to file charges on someone.  If the guy had taken aim and punched me in the nose, that's an intentional infliction of harm and I'd have no problem filing charges.  Again, this incident is only noteworthy on a national scale because of who the alleged assailant works for.  We don't need to have hours of televised discussion about the plight of battered women because of this incident.  Sorry guys and gals, this isn't the kind of thing that women go running to the help of DVIS for.

We see examples every day, somewhere on the news, of reporters and paparazzi being shoved out of the way by bodyguards and LEOs escorting anything from celebrities in and out of nightclubs to accused criminals going in and out of jails or courthouses during sensational trials.  It's not much unlike a mosh pit.  It's a crush of people, smile happens and we don't hear about battery charges being filed.  We might when someone's camera gets smashed out of frustration.  You and I seem to differ on the idea that ending up with bruises is a distinct possibility if you are trying to sidle up to someone like this.  Is a rough man-handling warranted?  Absolutely not.  However, any experienced journalist has to know it's a possible job hazard as per countless other examples we see daily on the news.  

I'm probably just a dinosaur from another time when you didn't run to the cops with every minor incident.  I was taught just because things didn't go my way or because someone bumped me a bit hard in the lunch line and I ended up with a bruise I wasn't suddenly a victim.  I've been intentionally crashed several times when I was racing cars and I knew it was intentional.  If you enter that arena, it's a known possible outcome and if you can't handle it, you don't do it.  The stakes are much higher than getting your arm yanked when that happens.  It might end up in a heated discussion immediately afterwards, then we'd share a beer and laugh after tempers had cooled off.  I work for one of those guys in my day job to this day.

The whole point in that useless personal experience diatribe above is pointing out there are certain situations you have to realistically understand there might be an adverse outcome if you crowd someone else or are in tight quarters.

So, did the reporter have the right to file charges?  According to Florida law, absolutely.  Under that same Florida law, she had no more right to touch Trump without his permission than his peon had touching her (no idea if she touched him or not, but simply saying he could have filed charges on her if she had touched him without his permission under this law).  Was she seriously injured or emotionally scarred for life?  I've not seen anything which would indicate injuries near that serious.  I simply feel investigative and prosecutorial resources are best used helping victims of serious crimes, not something in which the results resemble bad playground behavior.

And you know me, I always appreciate a spirited, respectful discussion.

[Conan71]

Integrity: the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.

2008 - Trump backs Hillary for President
2012 - Trump gives Democrats money
2015 - Trump runs for GOP presidential nomination
August - Trump says he will not support the GOP nominee if it isn't him. He says this repeatedly. He says it publicly. He says it during a national debate.

I heard the Libertarians got on the Oklahoma ballot. No idea who they are running... they probably have my vote just as a protest.

There's little doubt Trump is a D-Bag and a scary prospect as POTUS.

I had heard recently that there may finally be enough support (I believe it requires a petition I was only half-listening to the radio when I heard it) for "Libertarian" to finally become a recognized political party in Oklahoma.

[swake]

I seriously doubt the campaign manager intended to inflict harm on anyone, it's a crowded situation and he's trying to safely get his boss out of the building.  Until we can find empirical evidence he gets off on yanking women and beating them, that's the assumption I will go with since I did not personally witness the incident.  We don't know if he thought she was an annoying fan wanting a selfie (looks like a phone in her hand) or if she's been asking when he's going to kiss and make up with Megyn Kelley for the 10th time and The Donald said "Sic her!".  If Lewandowski was in full adrenaline mode, he may not have even been aware of how hard he pulled on her arm or maybe he had a few too many and was on a black-out drunk, who really knows but him?  Why he lied about the incident for a month is beyond me.  If he hangs out with The Donald, I'm sure he's somewhat of a D-bag.  

This is what I take exception with and it's probably because of the way I would have reacted.  I also assume at times that not everyone else on the planet has had common sense bred out of them:  You've got a crush of people surrounding The Donald while he's trying to leave.  He's now a high value target as a presidential candidate.  If you are going to crowd in, it should come as no surprise you might end up getting shoved or pulled out of the way if you are trying to get up next to him.  Try that with Obama or even Hillary and see what happens.  There absolutely is a different protocol in approaching a president or presidential candidate with something in your hand pointed at that person than there is to approaching you or I.  Perhaps they need better security in place with barricades to keep people back from The Donald now and this won't happen again.

If I were in the situation and ended up with some light bruises, it would have never crossed my mind to file charges on someone.  If the guy had taken aim and punched me in the nose, that's an intentional infliction of harm and I'd have no problem filing charges.  Again, this incident is only noteworthy on a national scale because of who the alleged assailant works for.  We don't need to have hours of televised discussion about the plight of battered women because of this incident.  Sorry guys and gals, this isn't the kind of thing that women go running to the help of DVIS for.

We see examples every day, somewhere on the news, of reporters and paparazzi being shoved out of the way by bodyguards and LEOs escorting anything from celebrities in and out of nightclubs to accused criminals going in and out of jails or courthouses during sensational trials.  It's not much unlike a mosh pit.  It's a crush of people, smile happens and we don't hear about battery charges being filed.  We might when someone's camera gets smashed out of frustration.  You and I seem to differ on the idea that ending up with bruises is a distinct possibility if you are trying to sidle up to someone like this.  Is a rough man-handling warranted?  Absolutely not.  However, any experienced journalist has to know it's a possible job hazard as per countless other examples we see daily on the news.  

I'm probably just a dinosaur from another time when you didn't run to the cops with every minor incident.  I was taught just because things didn't go my way or because someone bumped me a bit hard in the lunch line and I ended up with a bruise I wasn't suddenly a victim.  I've been intentionally crashed several times when I was racing cars and I knew it was intentional.  If you enter that arena, it's a known possible outcome and if you can't handle it, you don't do it.  The stakes are much higher than getting your arm yanked when that happens.  It might end up in a heated discussion immediately afterwards, then we'd share a beer and laugh after tempers had cooled off.  I work for one of those guys in my day job to this day.

The whole point in that useless personal experience diatribe above is pointing out there are certain situations you have to realistically understand there might be an adverse outcome if you crowd someone else or are in tight quarters.

So, did the reporter have the right to file charges?  According to Florida law, absolutely.  Under that same Florida law, she had no more right to touch Trump without his permission than his peon had touching her (no idea if she touched him or not, but simply saying he could have filed charges on her if she had touched him without his permission under this law).  Was she seriously injured or emotionally scarred for life?  I've not seen anything which would indicate injuries near that serious.  I simply feel investigative and prosecutorial resources are best used helping victims of serious crimes, not something in which the results resemble bad playground behavior.

And you know me, I always appreciate a spirited, respectful discussion.

She lost her job over it. All she originally asked for was an apology but then Lewandowski, the Trump campaign and her employer all called her a liar. To make matters worse there are reports that Trump has been paying her employer for positive coverage.

It took filing charges to get the video that proved she was telling the truth.

[Conan71]

She lost her job over it. All she originally asked for was an apology but then Lewandowski, the Trump campaign and her employer all called her a liar. To make matters worse there are reports that Trump has been paying her employer for positive coverage.

It took filing charges to get the video that proved she was telling the truth.

Saying she lost her job makes it sound like she was fired.  

She quit.  

With her new found celebrity, and some help from Gloria Allred, I'm sure she will have no trouble finding a new and better income stream.

We already knew Trump isn't above paying for good publicity.  He's been doing that for 30 years. 

[swake]

Saying she lost her job makes it sound like she was fired.  

She quit.  

With her new found celebrity, and some help from Gloria Allred, I'm sure she will have no trouble finding a new and better income stream.

We already knew Trump isn't above paying for good publicity.  He's been doing that for 30 years. 

Oh, I know she's far from innocent. Calling her a "reporter" is far harder than calling her a victim, and she's not much of a victim. There are no good actors here.

But don't let this guy off the hook. This isn't the only time Lewandowski's has been accused of being personally physical at rallies and as campaign manager he is very much at fault for his staff constantly being rough with protesters and other reporters. Even when he personally doesn't place a hand on anyone. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Cannon, you must also think poorly of Cruz and Kasich since they both waffled on the same pledge? Trump isn't putting on anybody. We all know that he is an opportunist, a narcissist, and a bully. In short, a successful businessman!

Seriously, he has let loose the frustration that the powerless carry with them in a big duffel bag. For instance, other than lawyers or college graduates who have had a few hours of law, common folk don't consider his  surrogate's actions as tantamount to assault and battery. And that is who he represents. 

Trump is stripping away that thin veneer of civilized behavior that covers the right wing extremists.  Showing them for what they truly are - giving the rest of us a little peek behind the curtain.

Hopefully, we will learn from this rare opportunity of truth about the extreme right.