Kentucky Clerk

[cannon_fodder]

Kim Davis, the Kentucky County Clerk who refuses to issue marriage licenses (part of her job as County Clerk in KY) if it means the gays can get married, was ordered to do so. She sued to try and prevent negative consequences for refusing to do her job. The Federal Court told her to do her job. The Appeals Court told her to do her job. The Supreme Court of the United States reused to step in, thus telling her to do her job.

She still refused, saying that "God" has told her not to issue marriage licenses if it means gay people can get married. It is her strongly held belief that the 1st Amendment allows her to disregard the Law, disregard judges orders, and to force her religious beliefs on others. What's more, she gets to do so with the force of law.

She was called before a judge today to answer for contempt (refusing to follow the Order of the Court). And she was thrown in jail.

About 2/3rds of the GOP field and a slew of people around the country are outraged. OUTRAGED that she is being punished for 1) refusing to obey a Court order, 2) disregarding Federal law and 3) using her power as a Court officer to force her religion on other people. I say to those people, first, you are an indictment of our educational system or failed social studies (or both), but second - lets turn the scenario around:

A) I refuse to issue drivers licenses to women. Because the prophet Mohammed, praise be unto him, says I shouldn't.

B) I refuse to issue conceal carry permits because Jesus Christ is my pacifist Lord and Savior, and as a Quaker violence is against my religion.

C) I refuse to issue your farm a permit because I, as an Orthodox Jew, believe pork is an abomination unto the Lord.

D) I refuse to allow you into City Hall because you are a women, and pursuant to the Bible you are unclean during certain times of the month - you have not proven to me when your cycle is such that I might verify your purity.

E) Though I am am a public school teacher you cannot force me to teach your daughter (or any girls), because the Prophet says girls should not be educated.

F) I'm a prison guard who lets all of the prisoners free, because as a Tibetan Buddhist, incarceration of a person is incarceration of a spirit and should not be allowed.

I shouldn't have to [insert law here] because [insert religion here]!  Yay! We do as we please...

Kim Davis is not in jail for her religious beliefs. She is in jail for contempt of Court. She was ordered to allow American Citizens to exercise constitutional rights, and she willfully ignored it.

[Conan71]

You ARE talking about the thrice-divorced Kim Davis, correct?

Why has she not been stoned already?

[swake]

You ARE talking about the thrice-divorced Kim Davis, correct?

Why has she not been stoned already?

She said she repented. So doesn't that mean she has to go back to Hubby 1? Living with Hubby 4 would still be living in sin, right?

Getting pregnant with twins with a man that eventually will be hubby 3 while married to hubby 1 and then getting Hubby 2 to adopt said twins is quite the trick.

[sgrizzle]

Apparently she didn't find Jesus until Hubby 4.

I have no problem if she doesn't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex people, that's what resignation is for.

If my boss told me I had to spend an hour a day making animal sacrifices and praying to Judge Reinhold, that might be against my beliefs and I might refuse. I would also 100% understand that by doing so I'm refusing to do what I'm paid to do and I shouldn't be expected to keep my job.

[Conan71]

Apparently she didn't find Jesus until Hubby 4.

I have no problem if she doesn't want to issue marriage licenses to same sex people, that's what resignation is for.

If my boss told me I had to spend an hour a day making animal sacrifices and praying to Judge Reinhold, that might be against my beliefs and I might refuse. I would also 100% understand that by doing so I'm refusing to do what I'm paid to do and I shouldn't be expected to keep my job.

What? You have something against praying to Judge Reinhold?  I fail to see the problem.

[DolfanBob]

Like I replied to several people on social media. She was "Court Ordered"
If I was "Court Ordered" to do community service. And didn't do the hours I was "ordered" to do.
Guess what would happen? 

I wombo, you wombo. It's second grade SpongeBob!

[Ed W]

A good friend argued that the First Amendment guarantees her right to practice her religion free of government interference. But I see this as an elected official using the power and authority of her office to force her religious views on others. I think the court got this right.

Meanwhile, her son is working in that same office and refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex partners.

[cannon_fodder]

A good friend argued that the First Amendment guarantees her right to practice her religion free of government interference. But I see this as an elected official using the power and authority of her office to force her religious views on others. I think the court got this right.

Meanwhile, her son is working in that same office and refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex partners.

Your friend is very badly mistaken. Where the limit exactly lies is a fun legal exercise, but it lies short of being able to ignore a law that the government has a compelling interest in enforcing, and it falls short of allowing believers to infringe on the rights of others. Adult wants to forgo life saving medicine because of belief?  FINE, die. Parent wants to let their kid die of the flu because they think IV fluids are of the devil?  Too bad, the hospital will save the kids life anyway.

Kim Davis is trying to take all that to the extreme - she's arguing that the government has to pay her to enforce her religious convictions on other people and NOT do her job. The Judge said he would let her out if she promised to not interfere with other Clerk's issuing licenses, she said no - basically,  it is her duty to stop gay marriage.

The government can not compel a Quaker to take up arms and fight in the US Army. They can compel them to join up and be a combat medic, an engineer, or other duty in line with their beliefs. A Quaker is NOT free to join up, go to OTS, take control of a platoon, and order them all to not fight in spite of the chain of command ordering them to fight.

Hell, since the 1960s businesses of public accommodation have not been "free to reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." It is doubtful that a secular Elvis impersonator wedding chapel in Vegas could turn away gay couples (a right doesn't exist until it can be exercised. If you have the right of travel, but no motel, gas station, or restaurant will serve you... you don't really have the right of travel. Even if all the establishments claim they are refusing service because the Bible tells them to do so). So for a government employee to make such a claim is ridiculous.

Lets boil it down, her argument is:

"My religious beliefs say this is wrong, so I'm not going to let it happen."

Now lets add situation facts to that:

"In spite of other peoples right to do so..."

"In spite of it being my job to do so..."

"In spite of an Oath to carry out the law..."


Cool. I have deeply held beliefs too. Like my right to slap the hell out of people I deem to be stupid.

Scene 1:

::c_f walks down the street and sees a man standing on the street corner talking to a woman, he begins walking by the two and overhears::

Man says: "You know, they've never really proven that the Earth is round. That was just made up so they could pretend we landed on the moon without seeing it. Everyone knows it was just a way to funnel money to the Rockefellers."

::c_f stops, slowly turns, and quickly slaps the man, who protests, only to receive another swift slap to the face. A police whistle cuts through the stunned silence. c_f casually reaches into his wallet and pulls out a small card. As the officer runs over it is held out to the officer.::

Officer: "I just saw you slap that man. You're under arrest for assault! What's this..."

Officer reads the card, camera zooms in on the text: "the bearer is a believer in the Church of Though Shalt Not be Stupid. Is is his religious belief that he must slap the stupid out of stupid people until they are stupid no more. The incident you just witness/were called to was the believer exercising his religious faith. So Sayeth the Card."

Officer, handing the card back to c_f: "Well, OK then. Is all the stupid out of this man?"

c_f: "For now, sir."

END SCENE

[patric]

A good friend argued that the First Amendment guarantees her right to practice her religion free of government interference. But I see this as an elected official using the power and authority of her office to force her religious views on others. I think the court got this right.

Meanwhile, her son is working in that same office and refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex partners.

Please tell me there's some in-breeding going on along with the nepotism 

If you are a civil servant, whose job as a representative of the government is to uphold and carry out the law, its not "government interference" to fire your butt if you are not doing your job.
If the government were telling you how you can or cannot worship in private, that would actually be closer to a constitutional issue, but the short story is... be you a clerk or a governor, you cant use religion to hide poor job performance.

[joiei]

A good friend argued that the First Amendment guarantees her right to practice her religion free of government interference. But I see this as an elected official using the power and authority of her office to force her religious views on others. I think the court got this right.

Meanwhile, her son is working in that same office and refusing to issue marriage licenses to same sex partners.

And according to her Wiki page, she took over the job from her mother. $80,000 a year for a job in some clerks office in Kentucky, Maybe I should run. 

[TheArtist]

"How offensive," you can hear the woman in the commercial say as a gay couple approaches the church for their wedding. "I won't let you blemish the sanctity of marriage!"

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/09/15/new-tide-to-go-commercial-has-everyone-talking/21236043/

[Townsend]

So it sounds like she is the chosen one.  Will she be the VP candidate to Huckabee's Presidential run?

[cannon_fodder]

I went to wedding between two guys in Iowa this last weekend. The County it was held in is 55% Catholic, more "Abortion is Murder" billboards and "Planned Parenthood is bad for Dubuque" type of signs than around here - easily. The ceremony was outdoors along their riverpark trail, there is a winery right next door and a convention center across the street. Lots of foot traffic.

And no one gave a damn. Eight years of legalized gay marriage and the sky was still blue and there is no sign that anything has changed for the worse. Dozens, maybe even hundreds of people walked 50 yards away and have it no more of a glance than any other wedding.

What a big deal this is, for now. Soon, most people will wonder what the fuss was about.

[Townsend]

What a big deal this is, for now. Soon, most people will wonder what the fuss was about.

Presidential Campaigns and zealotry.

[Conan71]

I went to wedding between two guys in Iowa this last weekend. The County it was held in is 55% Catholic, more "Abortion is Murder" billboards and "Planned Parenthood is bad for Dubuque" type of signs than around here - easily. The ceremony was outdoors along their riverpark trail, there is a winery right next door and a convention center across the street. Lots of foot traffic.

And no one gave a damn. Eight years of legalized gay marriage and the sky was still blue and there is no sign that anything has changed for the worse. Dozens, maybe even hundreds of people walked 50 yards away and have it no more of a glance than any other wedding.

What a big deal this is, for now. Soon, most people will wonder what the fuss was about.

They did this outdoors?  Weren't they worried about spreading teh gheys to innocent bystanders?