It's time Oklahoma gave up the death penalty

[cannon_fodder]

So far, the passionate arguments FOR the death penalty can be reduced to one word: vengeance.

Please expand that concept into a pragmatic argument. I'm not being obtuse, is it just that it makes you feel good to know we killed a bad person? Do you disagree with any of the assertions about deterrence or cost?

To be frank, most of it just seems like tough guy talk. "He deserves worse." "Staple his balls." "You don't have the stomach for it."  I'm not trying to garner flippant clichés, I want pragmatic, logical, articulate discussion on the topic.

How are we better off with the death penalty?

[patric]

But I agree with CF that Oklahoma should not be doing the executing since they bungle it way too often, and are probably executing way too many innocent people

An attorney representing several Oklahoma death row inmates says the state cannot be trusted to tell the truth about its executions.
Dale Baich is representing inmates who are challenging Oklahoma's lethal injection protocols. On Thursday, The Oklahoman newspaper reported that the state used a drug not included in its protocols — potassium acetate — when it executed inmate Charles Warner in January.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/10/08/us/ap-us-oklahoma-executions.html

[cannon_fodder]

The Tulsa World reported today that the vial used to execute the last inmate was labeled POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. The notes from the execution say the potassium chloride was administered. The DOC confirmed in statements that it administered potassium chloride - as the protocol instructs.

However, the actual vials of drugs are logged as potassium acetate. The autopsy reveals that he was actually injected with potassium acetate.

Gross incompetence or willful deceit?

Either way.... not good.

[TeeDub]

How are we better off with the death penalty?

So...  A person's crimes are so heinous that you no longer ever trust them in society.

But, you trust them socialize and be around other people.  (Some of whom have admitted mental issues.)  With the outcome being somehow better than isolating them and putting them to death?

I guess I just don't see the downside of the death penalty.   Or rather, I don't see why we would be better off without it.

[swake]

So...  A person's crimes are so heinous that you no longer ever trust them in society.

But, you trust them socialize and be around other people.  (Some of whom have admitted mental issues.)  With the outcome being somehow better than isolating them and putting them to death?

I guess I just don't see the downside of the death penalty.   Or rather, I don't see why we would be better off without it.

Not much socializing being done with prisoners in for life. And life in prison is cheaper. And fixable if a mistake was made. How exactly is putting people to death better, other than to satisfy our bloodlust for criminals.

[TeeDub]

Not much socializing being done with prisoners in for life.

But they will be able to socialize with other prisoners that will be released.   Some of these people (the Manson's, Bundy's, etc.) probably should not be allowed to espouse their gospel to people who have a deviant background and will soon be reintegrating to the public.

And life in prison is cheaper.

If you count only the incarceration part of a healthy inmate, it isn't that much cheaper.   Plus, that doesn't include the medical costs as the prisoner ages and needs advanced and end of life care.

A 2014 study out of Kansas reported that a death row prisoner costs $49,380 to house per year, whereas a general population prisoner costs $24,690.

versus

The average cost of housing federal inmates nearly doubles for aging prisoners. While the cost of a prisoner in the general population is $27,549 a year, the price tag associated with an older inmate who needs more medical care, including expensive prescription drugs and treatments, is $58,956, Justice Department officials say.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/05/02/the-painful-price-of-aging-in-prison/

And fixable if a mistake was made.

I understand that it may be some flaws in the system, but it is the best system we have.  From my experience, (albeit limited) it is the best system out there.  

How exactly is putting people to death better, other than to satisfy our bloodlust for criminals.

Again, who does it benefit from keeping these people alive?   Some weird sense of pity that they should be locked in a box for the rest of their lives versus humanely executed?

[Conan71]

But they will be able to socialize with other prisoners that will be released.   Some of these people (the Manson's, Bundy's, etc.) probably should not be allowed to espouse their gospel to people who have a deviant background and will soon be reintegrating to the public.

That is an incredibly easy fix.  You still put LWOP convicts on the former death row.  They don't mingle with the general population, just their own crazy types.  And if I'm correct, I believe they spend 23 hours a day in their own cell.


If you count only the incarceration part of a healthy inmate, it isn't that much cheaper.   Plus, that doesn't include the medical costs as the prisoner ages and needs advanced and end of life care.

A 2014 study out of Kansas reported that a death row prisoner costs $49,380 to house per year, whereas a general population prisoner costs $24,690.

That study is not taking into account the appeal costs which are only afforded to death row inmates regardless of their ability to afford an attorney.  Sentenced to life without parole?  Can't afford an attorney for appeal?  Tough smile.  The actual cost, from start to finish, is three times more for a death conviction vs. a LWOP conviction.  How much do you think this circus with our lethal injection will end up costing us between Lockett and Warner?  You think their families aren't going to sniff out some sort of settlement from the state?

Again, who does it benefit from keeping these people alive?   Some weird sense of pity that they should be locked in a box for the rest of their lives versus humanely executed?

Who does it benefit by putting them to sleep?  Again, the tax payer ends up footing the bill for all this nonsense.  While your federal prison study is intriguing, I'd like to see a comparison of overall life care vs. the cost of a death penalty case for comparison.  And keep in mind that's federal not state.  They may well have differing standards and accounting for costs of medical care.

[Conan71]

I am a big fan of the death penalty - and in general, I couldn't give a rat's backside about the guy being executed having to sit in a cesspool for a week, let alone in clean shorts on a bare floor.  The fate and circumstances of death of the victims of anyone who earns that penalty trumps ANY consideration.  Beaten to death with a baseball bat.  There are numerous videos and baseball game highlights that show someone being hit - often fairly hard - ONE time with a bat.  Most times not even loss of consciousness ensues.  If hit repeatedly on the head, it might be fairly quick, but if there are body shots, then it will be very prolonged.  So to get hit enough times, hard enough to kill someone...well, that is particularly heinous!

They deserve anything and everything that could be done to them, even outside of the current interpretation of law.  But I agree with CF that Oklahoma should not be doing the executing since they bungle it way too often, and are probably executing way too many innocent people - not as bad as Baja Oklahoma (aka Texas) or Ohio - but too much!

Having said that, I have a huge issue with the Glossip episode that puts me solidly against death penalty in this circumstance.  There is NO remaining sanity or even a hint of justice in the system that would kill a guy for convincing/paying someone to commit the act of murder, but let the actual perpetrator have a dramatically reduced penalty - life without parole.  Just because he testified/implicated!!  That is a bizarre, psychotic, deranged view of justice that should have no place in any society.

How RWRE of you.  Might even show some Murdochian tendencies.

[swake]

That is an incredibly easy fix.  You still put LWOP convicts on the former death row.  They don't mingle with the general population, just their own crazy types.  And if I'm correct, I believe they spend 23 hours a day in their own cell.

All of Big Mac is a Super Max prison, all prisoners are locked down 23 hours a day and are marched outside in chains for that one single "other" hour a day. The prison workers are from a medium security prison next door. McAlester is no Shawshank. My dad talked about units at the prison for problem prisoners where the lifers would toss feces and urine at the guards just for the hell of it. The prison even has cell within a cell units like from Silence of the Lambs.

Then there is death row which is kind of a ultra-super max prison within the prison. It's a separate unit and building, buried underground with windows in the ceiling. The inmates already have no contact with other prisoners. He said death row was always completely silent, very different from the larger prison.

[Conan71]

Then there is death row which is kind of a ultra-super max prison within the prison. It's a separate unit and building, buried underground with windows in the ceiling. The inmates already have no contact with other prisoners. He said death row was always completely silent, very different from the larger prison.

I've never understood that about endless appeals to keep from being put to death.  I'd rather be dead than live like that.

[TulsaMoon]

This has always been a rather tough subject for me. I lost my younger sister when I was 10 years of age to a babysitter high on drugs. It took me years to come to grips with losing a sister, but I moved on along with my two brothers and another sister. As the oldest I always felt it was my duty to protect, and the anger I felt towards the woman and of course myself lasted a very long time. I had always thought she should have died in the exact same manner that my sister did. Now this woman is out of prison after 31 years and married with grown step children. I am older now, all grey now and I hope much wiser, but my opinion has not changed. That one moment in time changed my life and the lives of everyone in my family. My father drank himself to death by the age of 45 due to this which meant the remaining 4 of us were left to a mother struggling to provide and deal with the heart ache alone. Having this woman put to death would not have changed these facts, they were a result of her actions, her death would have meant nothing to us.

Revenge, eye for an eye, doesn't change what happened, it just changes who you are down deep. I don't think I would have had any satisfaction looking back.

With that said I still believe in a death penalty. I believe families and society has the right to put to death those that are guilty of crimes that warrant such a punishment. I do not believe it reduces crime and I don't think that's what its intent is anymore. It may could be if the penalty was carried out in a much swifter fashion, but that would never happen with appeals, and of course putting to death innocent people.

[Townsend]

I believe families and society has the right to put to death those that are guilty of crimes that warrant such a punishment.

That decision isn't left to families or society.  It's left to a few people with power.

If it was left to society, capital punishment voting would be best held during other elections.  It'd flood the polls.

[TeeDub]

That decision isn't left to families or society. 

It is left up to society.   Much like medical marijuana.   If you can get enough support, you can ban/legalize it. 

[TulsaMoon]

That decision isn't left to families or society.  It's left to a few people with power.

If it was left to society, capital punishment voting would be best held during other elections.  It'd flood the polls.

I don't believe I said it was the decision of the family or society, I said they have the right to pursue that punishment. Both the family and society can supply pressure to put the death penalty on the table.

[AquaMan]

That pressure hasn't worked with liquor laws in Oklahoma. Or education funding. Or healthcare (if its related to the ACA). Or much of anything as long as the state legislature and the governorship are controlled by idealogues. It is indeed a few people with power.