CVS at 15th and Utica

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

Anyone remember a giant bull on the SE corner?

Sure do! http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/pulling-the-plug/article_9e93177c-359e-56d6-bb0a-4ef15262f25f.html You just sent me on a trip back to childhood.

Does anyone know/remember when the Old English style buildings were replaced with Stillwater National bank?
 

[Conan71]

Sure do! http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/pulling-the-plug/article_9e93177c-359e-56d6-bb0a-4ef15262f25f.html You just sent me on a trip back to childhood.

Does anyone know/remember when the Old English style buildings were replaced with Stillwater National bank?
 

From this article, it appears to be about 1997.  I was thinking mid 1990's.

http://tulsapreservationcommission.org/districts/swan-lake-historic-district/

[Tulsasaurus Rex]

Check out the corner entrance and intricate design work on this CVS.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8845619,-76.996219,3a,75y,242.81h,86.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sykLDghtnf0rKwpY8eA23hw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Obviously DC is a much bigger, denser, and pedestrian oriented town. This is across the street from a metro stop after all. And CVS obviously didn't build that, they moved into it. But still, makes your heart ache for what could be.

Speaking of moving into, CVS bought this tiny tiny green pub behind them and gutted it to use as storage for the CVS. Just interesting.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8846971,-76.9965486,3a,75y,212.08h,86.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHfrh3NoE3mks7iuXYgJ9BQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Bamboo World]

When does this proposal go back to the City Council?

[DowntownDan]

May 19.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

"Without exception, putting asphalt on grass is the least notable way to raise property values. The best way is with buildings.  Density does more to raise property values in a given neighborhood than asphalt ever could.  We have a plan calling for density, calling to fill up its space with buildings, not just single story buildings but multistory buildings, which will do more to raise property values than asphalt lots with stores in the middle of them...

"I hope it would be difficult for businesses to develop in Tulsa if those businesses would contradict the comprehensive plan of our city. Developers must see that this is a city with a plan, and that it's going somewhere, and that's important to me.  Our plans are critical to our success....

"Can this use of this land cause damage to the surrounding neighborhood? Planning is the thing that protects from that happening, and I will defend that as long as I am an elected person in this town.

"I want to talk tonight about small area plans. Those plans need to matter.  Mine [Utica Corridor in District 4] in particular was initiated and adopted by the city because of an ongoing conflict between large corporations and the historic neighborhoods that interface with them. And I made promises to those people I appointed to that small area plan committee that this plan would matter, and that this would be part of the solution moving forward to the ongoing struggle they have had over the last several decades of big companies interfacing with historic neighborhoods.

"There is something to seeing something that's not achieving its potential, and believing in what it can be, and investing time and resources and energy, and taking something that's not achieving its potential and [changing it] into something better. If we, as the city of Tulsa, don't allow these plans to be put into place and matter, we're saying to the pearl district, and to Kendall-Whittier, and to Forest Orchard [and Swan Lake and Yorktown] that your neighborhood is damned to stay the same, that we're not going too let you plan for something different and pursue that dream. And to me, that's not the Tulsa I want to live in. I want our plans to matter for the future.

"We're not voting on who the applicant is, we're voting on land use policy, on the comprehensive plan, and whether we're going to honor it.  And so I want to be consistent. The plan has to matter...This plan's been vetted several times and went through a lengthy process of development and was approved by INCOG and TMAPC and by the [City] Council and was adopted into Planitulsa.

"A great city has all kinds of different things.  A great city has a little bit of something for everyone. Tulsa has done an incredible job over the last 20 to 30 years of building suburban-style developments [but] If we have a part of town that says we're an urban part of town, and we want you to invest in the urbanity of our neighborhood, we should support that request....if we communicate today that small area plans don't matter we will struggle to get neighborhoods to care in the future.  I was elected to defend and represent the citizens of Tulsa and I believe wholeheartedly that it is in the best interest of Tulsans for their elected representatives to defend the plans that these citizens created. I hope that Tulsans in the future will be able to expect that the time they spend planning will be honored....  I hope tonight we start doing something special in Tulsa and that's defending the interests of our citizens even in the face of a difficult conversation.  Today we have something unprecedented in Tulsa and that is to say that we believe in our future, we believe in ourselves, and we have the confidence to defend our plans and our urban future against what suits the mood of the day."

-Excepted from a speech by Councilor Blake Ewing, Tulsa City Council general meeting May 3rd, 2012. 

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

To act like Cherry Street is this beacon of originality that needs to be preserved at all costs is disingenuous, considering a person standing at this intersection will be looking at a couple of banks, a Panera Bread, a Phillips 66, a Ghengis Grill, and a Chipotle. For Crying out loud.

This view of Cherry St is very concerning and condescending. You could say a similar thing about the Brady District:

To act like the Brady District is this beacon of originality that needs to be preserved at all costs is disingenuous, considering a person standing at the Main & Brady intersection will be looking at a Mexicali Border, a Coney Islander, a big parking log and a Fairfield Inn and Suites. For Crying out loud.

Yes we live in a country (and especially this area of the country thanks in part to our leaders) where huge corporations dominate almost every business and mixed-use district. It is sad that small businesses aren't more prominent in a unique urban area like Cherry St, but the attitude that there's nothing to preserve there is concerning:

First, this plan demolishes 2 interesting business buildings and a 1920's house. Many people who cared about preservation of the area were against the plans of the bank on the SW corner to demolish the neat shopping strip to build a big parking lot. In fact it is mentioned in the history of Swan Lake in the Tulsa Preservation Commission website http://tulsapreservationcommission.org/districts/swan-lake-historic-district/

Second, if Cherry St isn't a unique interesting part of Tulsa, then what is? Cherry St has the highest walkability of anywhere in Tulsa (https://www.walkscore.com/OK/Tulsa) and has many local businesses and, yes, chain establishments also, but ones that are typically located in similar bustling urban areas. If what you say is true, that Cherry St is not a beacon of originality, than we should give up for all areas in Tulsa because no area is good enough to preserve according to our most urban-development-minded city counselor.

We should've given up on Turkey Mountain ("It's no beacon of great urban parks! Look at the massive power lines running through it!") and give up on the 71st and Riverside development ("It's no beacon of parks! It is not developed! ANYTHING would be better than what it is!") and give up on the small area plan and let big corporations come and demolish whatever they want to build massive lots and low-quality 1-story buildings.

[Vashta Nerada]

One of opponents' complaints is though the planned building is two stories tall, it doesn't have a functional second floor.

"The small area plan did encourage a two-story building, but at staff level, I felt like even though it wasn't truly a functional two-story building, the height of the building is what really mattered," said INCOG Director of Land Development Services Dwayne Wilkerson.

[Conan71]

One of opponents' complaints is though the planned building is two stories tall, it doesn't have a functional second floor.

"The small area plan did encourage a two-story building, but at staff level, I felt like even though it wasn't truly a functional two-story building, the height of the building is what really mattered," said INCOG Director of Land Development Services Dwayne Wilkerson.

Dwayne is truly a nice guy and very helpful, but he's a symptom of what can happen when you allow former developers to either write or enforce our zoning codes.  I mainly say this because their empathy seems to fall on the side of developers when there is a contentious development like this particular one.

[TheArtist]

Second, if Cherry St isn't a unique interesting part of Tulsa, then what is? Cherry St has the highest walkability of anywhere in Tulsa (https://www.walkscore.com/OK/Tulsa) and has many local businesses and, yes, chain establishments also, but ones that are typically located in similar bustling urban areas. If what you say is true, that Cherry St is not a beacon of originality, than we should give up for all areas in Tulsa because no area is good enough to preserve according to our most urban-development-minded city counselor.

My walkscore is better :-P  https://www.walkscore.com/score/4332-s-canton-ave-tulsa-ok-74135    Which is one reason I would like to create a small area plan for this area of 41st and Yale.  Has a lot of potential to be an urban/main street hub if redeveloped well.  But apparently it doesn't seem like small area plans mean much anyway so why go through all the years of hard work it would entail to create one.

[Conan71]

My walkscore is better :-P  https://www.walkscore.com/score/4332-s-canton-ave-tulsa-ok-74135    Which is one reason I would like to create a small area plan for this area of 41st and Yale.  Has a lot of potential to be an urban/main street hub if redeveloped well.  But apparently it doesn't seem like small area plans mean much anyway so why go through all the years of hard work it would entail to create one.

Very bike-able?  I had to chuckle.  That's one of the more challenging areas to transit via bike in the entire city due to Darlington being fairly narrow with shopping and cut-through traffic as well as the gigantic intersection of Yale & I-44.  I've ridden under I-44 exactly twice along there on Yale, once north-bound and once south-bound.  It's pretty intimidating with all the traffic breaks and no one looking for bikes or pedestrians.

I think all your rating means is you can walk a block north from your house to the Promenade and get a hot meal, clothing, or nik-naks for your house or play Frogger to go another block north to get your pet food or groceries.  Or, if you were so inclined to earn a medical degree, you could walk a couple of blocks west and hope someone doesn't run the light by Mc Donald's when you are walking to nephrology class at the Schusterman center.

Sites like walkscore are as steeped in reality as Zillow is for home values.  There's fairly good data, but it's relevance is somewhat in question when you are actually in the area looking at the surroundings.

[TheArtist]

Very bike-able?  I had to chuckle.  That's one of the more challenging areas to transit via bike in the entire city due to Darlington being fairly narrow with shopping and cut-through traffic as well as the gigantic intersection of Yale & I-44.  I've ridden under I-44 exactly twice along there on Yale, once north-bound and once south-bound.  It's pretty intimidating with all the traffic breaks and no one looking for bikes or pedestrians.

I think all your rating means is you can walk a block north from your house to the Promenade and get a hot meal, clothing, or nik-naks for your house or play Frogger to go another block north to get your pet food or groceries.  Or, if you were so inclined to earn a medical degree, you could walk a couple of blocks west and hope someone doesn't run the light by Mc Donald's when you are walking to nephrology class at the Schusterman center.

Sites like walkscore are as steeped in reality as Zillow is for home values.  There's fairly good data, but it's relevance is somewhat in question when you are actually in the area looking at the surroundings.

Point to me is I can walk to more stuff and a larger variety of stuff than I could in Cherry Street.  I walk to the movies, the bookstore, and to the mall all the time. And it has the potential with the right infill to be a really good town center type area. Once you figure out the "back road" type areas here you can bike/walk down some nice quiet streets to get to other parts of town like how I can take the back roads and go to the YMCA and Lafortune Park.  I can take the trail over a street, then take the other neighborhood streets and go to Panera for breakfast and coffee, usually on Sunday Mornings as a nice walk. The main arterials are a bugger but again, if infill were to go say in front of the Promenade parking garage and front the sidewalks and same thing all along 41st on the North side and then had a pedestrian friendly development go in where the gas station now is... this area would be incredible.  A great place to shop, work, run errands, dine, etc. and if you could get here via transit would be great for a lot of people. Already beats the area around Woodland Hills Mall or Tulsa Hills, so in my opinion would have been a great place to have a small area plan, if those actually meant anything.

[Conan71]

For grins, I guess I need to see how they rate our neighborhood near 21st & Yale.  If it's rated less walkable or rideable than the area between 41st & I-44 between Yale and Darlington, I call shenanigans.  We are three blocks east of the complex housing Sears, Target, Reasor's, Gordman's, IBC Bank, etc.  We can walk up 20th St. and cut around the back of Sears and encounter maybe one or two cars on our way up there.

In that half mile stretch from 15th to 21st on Yale, I can buy a new Honda Motorcycle, shop for groceries at two locations, buy beer or liquor, clothing, tools, tires for my car, home accessories (and improvements), plants, mattresses, get a coffee, get my computer fixed, go to a soccer game, do my banking, get my hair cut, or dine at any number of fast food options which isn't my bag anyhow. 

Our Saturday morning routine consists of getting on a couple of our bikes and ride from garage sale to garage sale, ending up at the Cherry St. Farmer's Market if we make good time navigating the sales along the way, then we hit the flea market at the fairgrounds on our way home.

We don't have sidewalks in our neighborhood, but they really are not needed as ours is what I've always called a "pocket" neighborhood.  There's no connection from 21st to 15th so if someone is in our addition, they are either coming from or going to a destination, not trying to avoid traffic on a main thoroughfare.

I wasn't exaggerating about the lack of bike-ability down your way though.  You get south of 36th St. along the Yale corridor and it gets really scary. 

[LandArchPoke]

Point to me is I can walk to more stuff and a larger variety of stuff than I could in Cherry Street.  I walk to the movies, the bookstore, and to the mall all the time. And it has the potential with the right infill to be a really good town center type area. Once you figure out the "back road" type areas here you can bike/walk down some nice quiet streets to get to other parts of town like how I can take the back roads and go to the YMCA and Lafortune Park.  I can take the trail over a street, then take the other neighborhood streets and go to Panera for breakfast and coffee, usually on Sunday Mornings as a nice walk. The main arterials are a bugger but again, if infill were to go say in front of the Promenade parking garage and front the sidewalks and same thing all along 41st on the North side and then had a pedestrian friendly development go in where the gas station now is... this area would be incredible.  A great place to shop, work, run errands, dine, etc. and if you could get here via transit would be great for a lot of people. Already beats the area around Woodland Hills Mall or Tulsa Hills, so in my opinion would have been a great place to have a small area plan, if those actually meant anything.

I think what people haven't been paying attention too is the fact that the Small Area Plans don't regulate anything. They're just a framework of ideas for what people who live in those areas to express what they'd like to see developed. If you want to regulate (put that plan into action) then you need an overlay for that area which will guide development to fit the Small Area Plan.

[DowntownDan]

New renderings that will be voted on this Thursday.  Brick looks more authentic and includes "blade" signs.  Still not two functional floors.  Still destroys density to replace with single purpose box store.  Still no entrance at the intersection.  Glass is transparent, no more spandrell glass (rendering doesn't really show all that well but it's in the development description).  Better than the suburbs.  I hope the standard is a bit higher than that though.  Let me know if the link doesn't work.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4Dqzlhdnu6jY3JSa3hzLU9pVW8/view?usp=sharing