Vision 2025 Extension - Package Details

[Conan71]

I'm surprised a park and ride from BA to the IDL has never caught on.  The old Ford Glass Plant site would be ideal for just such a thing for east siders and BA residents.  That has the potential to take a lot of traffic off the BA. 

The main reason I drive commute rather than ride a bike is the need for a car in my job duties during the day.  If it weren't for that, I'd be looking at a transit or bike commute every day.  If I lived in BA, worked in downtown Tulsa and didn't need my car during the day I'd definitely take a park and ride bus rather than deal with the traffic on the BA and the daily accidents.

[DowntownDan]

I'm surprised a park and ride from BA to the IDL has never caught on.  The old Ford Glass Plant site would be ideal for just such a thing for east siders and BA residents.  That has the potential to take a lot of traffic off the BA.  

The main reason I drive commute rather than ride a bike is the need for a car in my job duties during the day.  If it weren't for that, I'd be looking at a transit or bike commute every day.  If I lived in BA, worked in downtown Tulsa and didn't need my car during the day I'd definitely take a park and ride bus rather than deal with the traffic on the BA and the daily accidents.

Broken Arrow suburbanites are used to their cars and made that decision knowing about the drive.  And the commute is nothing compared to what that distance would be in Dallas or Houston.  We're nowhere close to having the kind of traffic problems that change peoples' minds about transit.  Young people are more of a mindset like yours that if you can get away from needing a car, great.  The old guard is stuck in the car mindset and it won't change without severe traffic problems or extraordinarily high gas prices, which would have to be drastic, like $20 a gallon, to really make them change.  People are so addicted to their cars that demand for gas is extraordinarily inelastic.  We saw that with $4 gas making no noticeable change in the volume of commuter traffic or housing patterns.  Suburbs were still growing faster than the city and cars were still filling the highways.

[Conan71]

Broken Arrow suburbanites are used to their cars and made that decision knowing about the drive.  And the commute is nothing compared to what that distance would be in Dallas or Houston.  We're nowhere close to having the kind of traffic problems that change peoples' minds about transit.  Young people are more of a mindset like yours that if you can get away from needing a car, great.  The old guard is stuck in the car mindset and it won't change without severe traffic problems or extraordinarily high gas prices, which would have to be drastic, like $20 a gallon, to really make them change.  People are so addicted to their cars that demand for gas is extraordinarily inelastic.  We saw that with $4 gas making no noticeable change in the volume of commuter traffic or housing patterns.  Suburbs were still growing faster than the city and cars were still filling the highways.

The only difference I saw when gas was high here in Tulsa was a rise in Scooter sales at the scooter place on 15th St. more new small cars on the road and maybe a few more people choosing to bike.

I was largely dependent on the city bus when I was younger.  My mother worked out near St. Francis and we lived at 26th & Delaware.  There was a bus line that ran down 26th between Harvard & Lewis.  On nice days, I rode my bike or walked to Barnard Elementary at 17th & Lewis.  On rainy or really cold days, I could catch the MTTA just a few doors down from my house.

I also regularly took the bus downtown after school to the central library and would ride it back to just down the block from my house.  All this when I was between 10 & 11 years old.  You'd never dream of allowing a child to do that these days.

[AquaMan]

I think our parents were braver than we have been. Or they were less patient with having us around.

I remember refusing to look at gas pumps when the price hit $4 gal. There was simply a certain amount of driving I had to do to make ends meet and if that meant fuel gouging out a larger % of the budget then grit your teeth and go.

My youngest son is not that way. Bike, walk, bus or share are all equal choices to him. Nice to be young.

[PonderInc]

Young people are moving to places with better transit choices, better urban housing choices and better core density where everything they need is right outside their door.

If Tulsa wants to compete then we need to change the old guard way of thinking.

Retirement age people are also moving to those locations.  The reason?  They want to live independently as they age. Real transit means you can remain active in your community, even if you lose the ability to drive.  All sorts of statistics prove that people live longer if they can continue to function independently as they age.  In Tulsa, you better have a chauffeur or a lot of money for Uber, if you want to avoid becoming a shut-in when you can no longer drive. (Yes, The Lift system works for folks who need it, but it often has very long wait times, and riders are at the mercy of when the Lift shows up.  It's also incredibly expensive to provide.  A better option is fast, efficient, reliable transit for all people.)

[AquaMan]

Your post hits home. I was reminding my 86 year old mother that her inlaws were living in downtown Tulsa in their 80's in a lovely old 4 story converted hotel with lots of other old people. As kids we loved to visit them. The lobbies on each floor were like movie sets with grandfather clocks, easy chairs, pipe smoking geezers and even spittoons!  Besides the social network, they merely took the elevator down to street level and everything they needed was within a few blocks. Movie theaters, bars, restaurants, department stores and services. When I told her it would soon be like that again and maybe she should consider maintaining her independence by moving there she only lamented that there was no back yard.

Yes, mom and no mowing, either.

[Red Arrow]

Yes, mom and no mowing, either.

You make your mother mow her own backyard?

[Red Arrow]

On rainy or really cold days, I could catch the MTTA just a few doors down from my house.

I took the trolley the 1-1/2 miles to Jr. High or later the 1 mile to High School in bad weather.  Catholic school kids took the trolley in the other direction every day since it was too far to walk.  Student discount tickets were 11¢ when you bought a book of tickets or a batch of 4 from the motorman.

Edit: about 3.4 miles each way to the Catholic High Schools.

[Bamboo World]

[/quote]

That looks and sounds great!

It (the map) would look better if "University of Tulsa" had been spelled correctly.

[AquaMan]

You make your mother mow her own backyard?

She did up until a few years ago. Neighborhood kids now. I did my time, thank you.

[AquaMan]

It (the map) would look better if "University of Tulsa" had been spelled correctly.

And it would be a good idea to add "the Gathering Place" since its within a half mile of Peoria.

[Conan71]

Your post hits home. I was reminding my 86 year old mother that her inlaws were living in downtown Tulsa in their 80's in a lovely old 4 story converted hotel with lots of other old people. As kids we loved to visit them. The lobbies on each floor were like movie sets with grandfather clocks, easy chairs, pipe smoking geezers and even spittoons!  Besides the social network, they merely took the elevator down to street level and everything they needed was within a few blocks. Movie theaters, bars, restaurants, department stores and services. When I told her it would soon be like that again and maybe she should consider maintaining her independence by moving there she only lamented that there was no back yard.

Yes, mom and no mowing, either.

As my mother's mobility declines, this is a concern of mine as well.  Mom has lived alone near Southern Hills for 25+ years and enjoys it.  That's an area with pretty much zilch in the way of pedestrian friendliness.  I sense I won't be able to talk her into assisted living any time soon, nor moving anywhere she would no longer need her car.  She's one of the most independent people I've known and comes from a long line of them.

[Hoss]

As my mother's mobility declines, this is a concern of mine as well.  Mom has lived alone near Southern Hills for 25+ years and enjoys it.  That's an area with pretty much zilch in the way of pedestrian friendliness.  I sense I won't be able to talk her into assisted living any time soon, nor moving anywhere she would no longer need her car.  She's one of the most independent people I've known and comes from a long line of them.

My mom was the same way, even in her condition.  I had to help her with some stuff, but she hated that I had to.  Strongest willed person I ever knew.

[Stanley1]

Tulsa doesn't have the population growth of those cities.  We need young people to come here if there is ever going to be a change in how the voters advocate for transportation.  The old guard, who still dominates this city, don't care about transit.  They love their cars and wouldn't use transit if it stopped right in front of their house.  We also don't have the kind of traffic problems as Dallas and Houston that is forcing them to rethink highways and transportation.  When a 10 mile commute takes 30-45 minutes, you don't really have a choice.  We don't have that problem in Tulsa and with population stagnant, we won't for the foreseeable future.  Young people are leaving more than they're coming in it seems (it's at least somewhere even).  If that doesn't change, this conversation is meaningless.  This isn't the place to discuss why I think we're in this position because it gets very political. Nevertheless, here's an interesting read about Dallas and its transportation problems that is forcing it to rethink some things.  They aren't as progressive on the issue as you might think.

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2016/02/dallas-deck-parks-may-be-the-new-thing-but-expanded-highways-will-keep-coming.html/

This x1000.

Anybody trying to compare Tulsa to Dallas doesn't understand the comparison they are trying to make.  You can get anywhere in Tulsa, in a car, in 30 minutes or less, any time of the day.  Sometimes you can't go 5-10 miles in a care in Dallas in 30 minutes.  THEY need solutions like this.  Tulsa does not, at least, at this point.

I'm not against public transportation, per se, heck, I'm not even against looking into getting rail transit at a macro level (think Tulsa to OKC).  But dedicated bus lanes on some of our busiest streets?   Proposed by some of the same folks that are against REI, anything at Turkey Mountain, or massive river development, etc?  I don't get it.  But dedicated bus lanes?

[Conan71]

This x1000.

Anybody trying to compare Tulsa to Dallas doesn't understand the comparison they are trying to make.  You can get anywhere in Tulsa, in a car, in 30 minutes or less, any time of the day.  Sometimes you can't go 5-10 miles in a care in Dallas in 30 minutes.  THEY need solutions like this.  Tulsa does not, at least, at this point.

I'm not against public transportation, per se, heck, I'm not even against looking into getting rail transit at a macro level (think Tulsa to OKC).  But dedicated bus lanes on some of our busiest streets?   Proposed by some of the same folks that are against REI, anything at Turkey Mountain, or massive river development, etc?  I don't get it.  But dedicated bus lanes?

If you really agree x 1000 times you don't seem to realize how myopic our current leadership is/was in trying to promote the REI and Turkey Mountain developments.  

Why would anyone think having a busy shopping center adjacent to an outdoor recreation area which is only growing in popularity amongst YP's (actually all age groups) is a good idea?

Why would anyone think cheap-selling park land and subsidizing the construction for an REI plus other innocuous tenants is a boon for luring or retaining YP's to Tulsa?  Guess who I usually see on the volleyball courts here?  Mostly under 40 people with all courts full when they are playing.

Those are both projects which would add incredibly little to our city coffers due to all the "gimme's" the developers want to make them happen and mean nothing to young professionals who would either stay here or be attracted here.