The republican party seems divided

[RecycleMichael]

We started this conversation three years ago and it turned ugly.

Now maybe we can rationally explain in our own words why this is happening.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=19750.120

[cannon_fodder]

The GOP has three camps. To be as blunt and draw the lines as clearly as possible, there are four separate camps:

1) People for the Joinder of Church and State;

2) Business Shall Set you Free;

3) Libertarians; and

4) The I'm White, Poor, and Angry Party.


Those groups have large swaths of shared beliefs:  Statements of nationalism. Strong on Defense spending. A general dislike of government. A golden age belief that things were always better in the past (they had this belief in the past too). And generally not wanting anything to change. The groups also have a good bit of crossover.

But from there the priorities change.

The Church people want the government to reflect the bible as they see fit; mostly the parts restricting other people from doing things, not the parts about taking care of the poor or loving thy neighbor.  Preventing gay marriage and families (they moved on from interracial marriage and family ~20 years ago), preventing abortions (not by preventing unwanted pregnancies, by making it illegal), enabling government institutes to adopt and preach their religion (monuments, posters, prayers, Bibles as text books, etc.), and preserving our moral fabric (read: hindering alcohol, the sex industry, continuing the war on drugs).

The business people just want laws that cut taxes for the most wealthy (and necessarily cutting benefits for the poorest to offset the same), subsidies large businesses, open up trade, keeps labor in its place, and makes sure everything runs smoothly. Pure self interest capitalism, often with a short term bent so they can collect their bonus money and run to the Hamptons. They are happy to put up with the Church people because they don't really have conflicting agendas. But the Libertarians and Angry people can cause them trouble. Business has been able to run the establishment for a long time now and was a stabilizing rational actor (you knew what they wanted), but is losing control (or has lost control).

The Libertarians piss off the other groups. They don't want the government enforcing a religious code or morals. They don't want subsidies or rules just for big business. And they sure don't want angry people rattling cages all the time for no good reason. The libertarians have been strained within the Big Tent for a while now.

And the Angry people... they hate everything. They hate taxes, they hate having crap government services, and they certainly hate the "establishment." Not at all interested in facts or debate, just wants their bias affirmed. Unhappy with their station in life, and wants to make America great again, but can't articulate what that means, what made us great, or how we get there.  Dislikes the business side of the party, doesn't understand the libertarians, and feels like they should support the church people because that's what the Country was founded on... but doesn't really care about the same goals (or is overtly hostile to them when it comes down to it). Renowned for not knowing much about the issues but having strong opinions, results in pure obstructionism as your idea sucks...but I don't really have a solution. Anti immigration, anti tax, anti bail outs, thinks women, minorities, and college kids have it too easy, and constantly convinced they are minutes away from losing their guns.

- - - -

Clearly I'm being a smartbutt. However, there is a lot of truth in there. There are several different camps with various levels of overlap. And those camps do not share the same goals, values, or philosophy. The business camp has been dominant, and is on a collision course with the Angry people. They do not share many common goals and sometimes are against each other.

The two party system has always sucks. Burn it down and start over. Many of the Republican camps could team with Democrats or Greens or Labor on different issues. By trading horses many groups could get some of what they want. Or we could keep a binary system and bang our heads against the wall a few more decades.

[heironymouspasparagus]

According to that other thread, Ed owes us popcorn!!

[Ed W]

I owe you guys popcorn? When did I say that?

But I'll gladly do it. Popcorn is a major weakness right up there with coffee. I'm readily persuaded for either of them.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I owe you guys popcorn? When did I say that?

But I'll gladly do it. Popcorn is a major weakness right up there with coffee. I'm readily persuaded for either of them.

The link Michael posted above.  Page 9, reply #129.  You said you will have to make the popcorn....

[Ed W]

Let's see...there's some Orville Reddenbacker around here somewhere, but it's Her private stash and it'a hangin' offense. I only look dumb.

Your choices are microwave popcorn or old fashioned popped-on-the-stove stuff. We used to have a hot air popper. I miss it 'cause I'd roast coffee in it these days.

But I'm okay with meeting somewhere for popcorn...and beer.

[TulsaMoon]

We started this conversation three years ago and it turned ugly.

Now maybe we can rationally explain in our own words why this is happening.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=19750.120

Have you watched the debates? I am watching the GOP debate right now and that alone should answer all questions as to why the party I belong to has taken the Mr Hanky ride down the crapper. Watching Chris Christie standing behind Trump is also a tell tell sign of holy smokes why am I here. The problem though does not just belong to the GOP. The divide is across the board. That's the issue, everyone has to figure this out and not just say the GOP is divided, everything in this country is divided. Until everyone can start to concentrate on all and not just the Republicans or the Democrates we won't move forward.

The blame game is why we are all divided, plain and simple. I won't change my mind but instead I will blame. That's the problem across the board.

[davideinstein]

You have dumb and dumber. They'll never figure it out.

[Conan71]

Have you watched the debates? I am watching the GOP debate right now and that alone should answer all questions as to why the party I belong to has taken the Mr Hanky ride down the crapper. Watching Chris Christie standing behind Trump is also a tell tell sign of holy smokes why am I here. The problem though does not just belong to the GOP. The divide is across the board. That's the issue, everyone has to figure this out and not just say the GOP is divided, everything in this country is divided. Until everyone can start to concentrate on all and not just the Republicans or the Democrates we won't move forward.

The blame game is why we are all divided, plain and simple. I won't change my mind but instead I will blame. That's the problem across the board.

People need to change their focus from their differences to what makes us all similar and go from there.  It's basically a psychosis of exceptionalism or first identifying others by how they are not like ourselves.  That's got to end for any progress to happen.

JMO, 50 years of racial relations improvement have gone straight down the crapper during the Obama administration.  When you have legislators and pundits claiming opposition to his policies were racially-based, it only goes downhill from there.  With the media homing in on notable killings of blacks by cops or others since Trayvon Martin and looking for any sort of racial protests, this is why the divide has grown.

How many whites, Asians, and Hispanics have been killed by police in the last 3-4 years?

[davideinstein]

People need to change their focus from their differences to what makes us all similar and go from there.  It's basically a psychosis of exceptionalism or first identifying others by how they are not like ourselves.  That's got to end for any progress to happen.

JMO, 50 years of racial relations improvement have gone straight down the crapper during the Obama administration.  When you have legislators and pundits claiming opposition to his policies were racially-based, it only goes downhill from there.  With the media homing in on notable killings of blacks by cops or others since Trayvon Martin and looking for any sort of racial protests, this is why the divide has grown.

How many whites, Asians, and Hispanics have been killed by police in the last 3-4 years?

Or have we finally just opened the discussion on racism?

Also, he's not responsible for the racism we all know exist in the GOP.

[Ed W]

I'm not sure we can bridge the divide through good intentions and honest discussion, not so long as one party refuses any sort of compromise and disdains bipartisanship. No, I think it will take an existential threat to force us to work together, albeit a temporary measure. These days, I'm not certain another 911 or even a Pearl Harbor would do that.

[cannon_fodder]

JMO, 50 years of racial relations improvement have gone straight down the crapper during the Obama administration.  When you have legislators and pundits claiming opposition to his policies were racially-based, it only goes downhill from there.  With the media homing in on notable killings of blacks by cops or others since Trayvon Martin and looking for any sort of racial protests, this is why the divide has grown.

Interesting conversation, I'm not trying to give a lecture because I don't know anything you don't. But I have had many interesting conversations on race with many different people and been forced to think about it, or at very least hear their perspectives (hey, I have a black friend!). From my arms-length perspective, race relations haven't "gone straight down the crapper," but rather we have not been allowed to sit back and believe everything is fine. Simply because I didn't see it on TV, doesn't mean there wasn't a problem before. From 1920-1950s race relations appear fine, until they got all uppity in the 1960s --- or rather the civil rights movement began speaking up in the 1960s after their fathers served in WWII.

I think we are seeing the same basic feeling. Racial equality in the eyes of the law improved immensely two generations ago --- recall marrying a person of a different race was illegal in Oklahoma until 1967, and only then because of a Federal Judge (1960s was now 2 generations ago for today's college kids). But racism didn't go away: it shifted, it changed, it molded itself - but I doubt it ever really goes away. People look different, act different, and stereotypes apply. When that becomes institutional, it is racism to varying degrees.   

I don't think it was the media reporting on Malcom X or Martin Luther King that caused the divide to grow then, and I don't think it is media coverage of police killings doing it now. The media is inherently lazy. Show them a story line, and they will run with it.  Police vs. Black People is a nice, neat, easy story line. The truth of the matter isn't the point of the nightly news.

How many whites, Asians, and Hispanics have been killed by police in the last 3-4 years?

Police report killing about 1,000 people per year in the US (fwiw, about 56% of those are armed with a gun). In the last 5 years the number of killing have broken down approximately like this:

White: 2,450 people, 49% (proportional to population would be 3130)
Black: 1,500 people, 30% (660)
Hispanic: 950 people, 17.1% (855)
Asian/other: 100, 2% (355)

More white people were killed by police, but in that white people make up 63% of the population and black people make up 13% of the population - it should be nearly impossible to reverse those numbers.  As it stands, the number of dead black men is some 2.3 times higher than one would expect. A black kid between 15 and 19 is twenty-one time more likely to be killed by police than a white kid in the same age group.

Now, you could argue that there are a number of reasons for that. Social issues, economic issues, education issues - items that lead to more confrontations with police officers, more likelihood of carrying firearms during those confrontations and things other than the color of their skin that led to the death rate. BUT...

Black men make up 6% of the population, and account for 40% of unarmed people killed by police officers.

If cyclists made up 6% of the road traffic, but 40% of the deaths caused by traffic collisions with police officers --- you'd find that number extremely concerning. Even though you can list any number of reasons why a cyclist may be more likely to be killed on the road by an officer. The simple, giant disparity in numbers is tough to swallow --- even if you can't pinpoint why it is happening.

I don't agree with the Black Lives Matter people. But I get what they are trying to do and I'm glad they are doing it. If a segment of our population is mad and feels like they are being mistreated - I'd rather they speak their mind. I don't think it is necessarily a signal that relations are truly deteriorating.

Sources:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/police-kill-more-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/?page=all
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/09/04/the-real-story-of-race-and-police-killings/?_r=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States
http://www.lovingday.org/legal-map

[swake]

People need to change their focus from their differences to what makes us all similar and go from there.  It's basically a psychosis of exceptionalism or first identifying others by how they are not like ourselves.  That's got to end for any progress to happen.

JMO, 50 years of racial relations improvement have gone straight down the crapper during the Obama administration.  When you have legislators and pundits claiming opposition to his policies were racially-based, it only goes downhill from there.  With the media homing in on notable killings of blacks by cops or others since Trayvon Martin and looking for any sort of racial protests, this is why the divide has grown.

How many whites, Asians, and Hispanics have been killed by police in the last 3-4 years?

Race relations have gone in the crapper because a large percentage of the population lost their minds when a black man entered the White House and they took a major political party with them. If you want to disagree with me, see Donald Trump.

And yes, police in the United States kill way too many people of all races, this is not a problem only in the black community, it impacts everyone. But, the impact to blacks and the mentally ill is very disproportionate to others.

I think the reasons for this coming up now so much are 1. everyone has a video camera in their pockets, 2. militarization of the police with left over equipment from our constant wars, 3. black people finally feeling empowered with a black man in the White House, 4. the post 9/11 feeling that police are all heroes and can do no wrong.

[Conan71]

Or have we finally just opened the discussion on racism?

Also, he's not responsible for the racism we all know exist in the GOP.

Why isn't anyone acknowledging the obvious racism within the Democratic Party then?  It's plainly obvious it exists there as well and extends to race baiting.  Racism isn't about white vs. black, it's also about black vs. white. 

There's become a blanket assumption like yours that members of the GOP are racists and xenophobes.  When people disagree with policy positions for pragmatic reasons (such as immigration reform), it gets spun into racial or ethnic hatred.  Note: I have no political party affiliation, I'm simply calling it as I see it.

Why isn't a Congressional Black Caucus viewed as exclusionary or racist?  Wouldn't a Congressional White Caucus be viewed that way?  How about black or Hispanic student associations on college campuses?  I'd really like someone to take a swing at that quandary and explain how it is not racial or ethnic exceptionalism which would be met with strong opposition if there were groups like that for white folk.

[Conan71]

Race relations have gone in the crapper because a large percentage of the population lost their minds when a black man entered the White House and they took a major political party with them. If you want to disagree with me, see Donald Trump.

And yes, police in the United States kill way too many people of all races, this is not a problem only in the black community, it impacts everyone. But, the impact to blacks and the mentally ill is very disproportionate to others.

I think the reasons for this coming up now so much are 1. everyone has a video camera in their pockets, 2. militarization of the police with left over equipment from our constant wars, 3. black people finally feeling empowered with a black man in the White House, 4. the post 9/11 feeling that police are all heroes and can do no wrong.

Obama brought in very bold policies when he came into office, the ACA being the most controversial of all.  There was and is plenty of empirical data to oppose the ACA on pure economic and policy issues.  Defenders of Obamacare morphed it into claims of racism with no evidence to back it up.  Had the exact same policies been introduced by a white president and met the same opposition, what would the claim have been then?

The rest of your points are well-taken. 

Let's face it, there are deeply-rooted societal issues within the black community regarding the lack of hope and opportunity for young black men.  That has got to change, but no one seems to know how to properly address it.  You can't simply legislate a strong family unit that helps steer young men away from gang and criminal activity and therefore makes them less likely to end up on the wrong side of the law.