Tulsa light rail/trolley/streetcar discussion

[Bamboo World]

Users turned thread drift into an interesting discussion on light rail in Tulsa. They requested a thread split. Done.

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I imagine that [the Gunboat Park neighborhood is] what Greenwood was like before it got urban renewaled for the OSU-Tulsa campus that was never built.

Greenwood, at least in terms of the core of Black Wall Street between Archer and Easton, was more urbanized than the Gunboat Park area ever was.

Even as far north as Haskell, Greenwood was more urban than Gunboat Park.  Here's an example looking north from Greenwood and Haskell, showing the flatiron Del Rio Hotel apartment building:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

[Bamboo World]

Even as far north as Haskell, Greenwood was more urban than Gunboat Park.  Here's an example looking north from Greenwood and Haskell, showing the flatiron Del Rio Hotel apartment building:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

Wow that part of Greenwood looks awesome.  It'd be an amazing urban space if it was still standing...

Here are a few more photos of Greenwood ...

First, a little farther back (south) from the one above, looking north on Greenwood from around Easton Street:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

Second, a little more back (south) from the previous pic ... this one looking north in the block between Cameron and Easton:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

Next, turned around and looking south on Greenwood from around the same spot, near Easton, with the core of the business district visible in the distance:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

This one is from around Mathew B. Reconciliation Way and Greenwood, looking northeast on the bend in the Sand Springs trolley line (approximately here -- the skinny girl is standing behind where Fat Guy's is now):

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

And next, turned around looking southwest on the Sand Springs line toward downtown Tulsa, from the skinny girl's vantage point:

Source: The Beryl Ford Collection/Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library and Tulsa Historical Society

[rdj]

How cool would it be to have that trolley still running from OSU Tulsa to OneOK Field?  The trolley would/could cut along between the IDL and OneOK Field, correct?  The IDL is between the photographer and the AME Church, right?

Also, the Amazon seller for that book is Gardner's on Mingo here in Tulsa.  I would just visit their store and buy it in person.

[cannon_fodder]

How cool would it be to have that trolley still running from OSU Tulsa to OneOK Field?  The trolley would/could...

I almost posted this. Had we retained our trolley lines hipsters and their cash would be flooding Tulsa from over priced neighborhoods in Brooklyn, San Fran, and Austin (kinda' tongue in cheek, kinda' not). Seriously, the entire dynamic of the city would have changed. A true urban town in the mid-west?

I've drawn out trolley lines before in my fantasy Tulsa. At $10mil a mile, with a $100mil budget to build (or take half the money from the gathering, or the dams, or...). You can hit a ton of high points. Not meaning to start an argument on if it is worth the investment when rubber can do it cheaper...that's an entirely different thread.

/thread drift

[rdj]

I almost posted this. Had we retained our trolley lines hipsters and their cash would be flooding Tulsa from over priced neighborhoods in Brooklyn, San Fran, and Austin (kinda' tongue in cheek, kinda' not). Seriously, the entire dynamic of the city would have changed. A true urban town in the mid-west?

I've drawn out trolley lines before in my fantasy Tulsa. At $10mil a mile, with a $100mil budget to build (or take half the money from the gathering, or the dams, or...). You can hit a ton of high points. Not meaning to start an argument on if it is worth the investment when rubber can do it cheaper...that's an entirely different thread.

/thread drift

To draw that back in...  What if the line went down Elgin?  The large traffic circle at Elgin / 10th / 11th just north of Gunboat Park would be a great place for a turnaround for transit...  Walk less than two blocks from Gunboat Park, jump on a trolley of some sorts and head to ball game or art exhibit or dinner in Brady?

[SXSW]

To draw that back in...  What if the line went down Elgin?  The large traffic circle at Elgin / 10th / 11th just north of Gunboat Park would be a great place for a turnaround for transit...  Walk less than two blocks from Gunboat Park, jump on a trolley of some sorts and head to ball game or art exhibit or dinner in Brady?

Would love to see this happen.  Really build up Elgin as the primary mixed-use corridor through east downtown.  Eventually extend the streetcar east down 11th.

[johrasephoenix]

I've always wondered if the original streetcar tracks are still there just paved over. 

It stinks that we sprawled out so badly.  It's so hard to make transit work in a city once its sprawled.... if they had stayed in place and our development patterns had been a bit more compact, maybe it could've been different (probably not though...our city just didn't have enough time to grow before cars).

Apparently there used to be an unspoken "greenbelt" agreement between Tulsa and its suburbs.  It was tossed out the window in 1966.  You wonder what it would've been like if the Tulsa metro had adopted a Portland style growth boundary.

[Conan71]

I've always wondered if the original streetcar tracks are still there just paved over. 

It stinks that we sprawled out so badly.  It's so hard to make transit work in a city once its sprawled.... if they had stayed in place and our development patterns had been a bit more compact, maybe it could've been different (probably not though...our city just didn't have enough time to grow before cars).

Apparently there used to be an unspoken "greenbelt" agreement between Tulsa and its suburbs.  It was tossed out the window in 1966.  You wonder what it would've been like if the Tulsa metro had adopted a Portland style growth boundary.

I believe there are street car tracks paved over on Delaware between 11th & 15th and down 13th St. between Delaware and Harvard.  We had a discussion on this a long time ago on here, you might find it in the archives.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Here is the link to the Michael Bates site with a map (both a visual and a download KMZ file for Google Earth and Google Maps) from 2009.

http://www.batesline.com/archives/2009/12/tulsa-streetcar-and-interurban-l.html

[Bamboo World]

To draw that back in...  What if the [trolley] line went down Elgin?  The large traffic circle at Elgin / 10th / 11th just north of Gunboat Park would be a great place for a turnaround for transit...  Walk less than two blocks from Gunboat Park, jump on a trolley of some sorts and head to ball game or art exhibit or dinner in Brady?

The biggest barrier might be the at-grade crossing of the train tracks and trolley tracks between 1st and Archer.  It would be a timing issue and might cause occasional delays/conflicts with the trolley schedule.

But Elgin is a historical trolley route, with tracks once running from 4th to 11th.

[SXSW]

The biggest barrier might be the at-grade crossing of the train tracks and trolley tracks between 1st and Archer.  It would be a timing issue and might cause occasional delays/conflicts with the trolley schedule.

But Elgin is a historical trolley route, with tracks once running from 4th to 11th.

I've wondered if that would be an issue, and if a Detroit/Cincinnati couplet would be better since they have bridges. 

[Bamboo World]

I've wondered if that would be an issue, and if a Detroit/Cincinnati couplet would be better since they have bridges.
 

I think any of those three streets (Elgin, Detroit, or Cincinnati) could work.  Any grade crossings would be a coordination issue between the trolley and the timing of BNSF traffic, along with overhead clearances for catenary wires and trains.  Nothing that can't be overcome, of course...

In my opinion, a very simple trolley route would be the best for people to understand, to remember, and to utilize.

Possible one-way loop options:

a) counter-clockwise north on Detroit to John Hope Franklin, west on John Hope Franklin to Boulder, south on Boulder to 10th, east on 10th back to Detroit.  Advantages:  expandable/flexible south on Boulder, west on 10th (and 11th/12th), north on Detroit and/or Main, east on John Hope Franklin and/or 10th (and 11th), ability to convert to a two-way route.

b) clockwise or counter-clockwise on Elgin - John Hope Franklin - Boulder - 10th.  Advantages:  expandable with the ability to convert in the future to two-way as Option a.  Disadvantage: possible conflict with BNSF trains at Elgin crossing (but a short bypass to Detroit is possible)

In the Downtown Master Plan, Jack Crowley suggested Boulder as a two-way trolley route, from John Hope Franklin to 18th.  That single route alone would do wonders to connect north and south over the BNSF tracks, and the Boulder Avenue bridge was designed for it.

There also are several possibilities for more routes/loops.  But I think keeping it simple is the key.  I've never ridden the Loop bus that runs through the downtown on Fridays and Saturdays, although I rode the rubber-tired trolley (which preceded the Loop bus) many times.  In the case of events, the Loop bus can and does take detours.  But many people are not familiar with downtown Tulsa, and they don't understand the basic Loop bus route and timing, let alone the many detours.  Trolleys would need to run on streets that are not regularly closed for events, and the headways would need to be short, on a very reliable schedule, in order to be truly successful.

[SXSW]

For reference this OKC's route map:


Except for along Broadway for a few blocks it runs on couplets.  And where it crosses the BNSF tracks there is an underpass so no conflicts with the freight trains.  I'm sure it has been done before but that seems like a big obstacle for Elgin.

Bamboo I like your idea but I wonder if you need to run all the way to John Hope Franklin?  I imagine someday OSU will be much larger with mixed use student housing but that seems to be way in the future.  What if instead you ran the northbound on Detroit (in its own dedicated lane) and the southbound on Cincinnati to a couplet on Archer and Brady?  Then use both lanes of Boulder to cross back over and then a couplet on 3rd and 4th back to Cincinnati and Detroit. 

That would be one line with another running down Boulder.  The problem with Boulder is that there is very little retail or mixed use along it.  Would Boston be a better option?

[rdj]

Running to John Hope Franklin brings Emerson School onto the route, which as it moves to a magnet program helps downtown residents.  Also, allows Brady Heights residents to visit downtown without a car.  I think there is ample reason today with an eye on the future.

[Bamboo World]

Bamboo I like your idea but I wonder if you need to run all the way to John Hope Franklin?

It wouldn't need to run to John Hope Franklin.  It could go on Archer and/or Mathew B. Reconciliation Way and/or Cameron.  There are several possibilities.

My main points:

1) The infrastructure for fixed guideway systems (as opposed to rubber tire vehicles) is expensive to install, so it should go where it will stay and be utilized for many years.

2) The route should be super-simple to understand and to remember.  It should go on streets which can remain open (to streetcars, at least) during special events, such as art festivals, parades, marathons, bike races, etc.  

3) The headways should be short.  The hours of operation should be long.

The problem with Boulder is that there is very little retail or mixed use along it.  Would Boston be a better option?

In the Downtown Area Master Plan (DAMP), Boulder was targeted as a north-corridor because it has great potential for retail and mixed-used development, among other reasons.  In the DAMP Volume 2 document, Boulder was shown as the primary corridor, but Main was also shown as potential loop near the north end (in Figure 1 on page 15, on page 105, in Figure 4 on page 165, and on page 166) and at the south end (near 18th on pages 76-78, page 105, and page 170).  Boston was also shown as a potential loop at the south end near 18th (on page 169).

The DAMP proposed trolley tracks on both sides of Boulder, but the initial trolley route wouldn't necessarily have to be on Boulder.  It could be on other streets, couplets, or loops.  But as the DAMP was developed, Boulder was seen as having tremendous potential, perhaps the most potential, as a north-south "starter" route.