Terence Crutcher

[AquaMan]

That's what I saw as well. The light bar was on from the helicopter vantage point. To me that destroys a lot of their credibility.

[Bamboo World]

Every official who has discussed it and every report I have heard on it says the same thing. Tulsa police emergency system has a three toggle system:

0 = off
1 = rear lights (direction lights)
2 = overhead lights and camera
3 = all lights, siren, and camera

She parked and put her car in #1. I suppose that's not unusual for a routine stop when an officer thinks they may just be pushing a vehicle to the side of the road or blocking traffic. I have no reason to doubt that's how the system actual works, I haven't heard a credible source dispute it either. Clearly, it would be a stupid lie it that wasn't how the system works. Unfortunately, it may be impossible to disprove the theory that the video was destroyed.


https://www.readfrontier.com/spotlight/police-promise-achieve-justice-investigate-continues-death-terence-crutcher/
Tulsa World reports the same

I don't think that's how the lights/siren toggle system works with the camera.

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).

About 54 seconds after Mr. Crutcher falls to the pavement, Officer Sandra Dunn's vehicle passes in front of Shelby's and to the right of Crutcher's.  Dunn's lights are toggled off (to 0 or possibly 1) for a few seconds, but the video continues.  Obviously, Dunn's camera was recording without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

After time mark 42:18 in Officer Jason Roy's video, I don't see the flash of any overhead lights.  About 20 seconds later, the headlights are turned off, also.  However, the video continues until 48:27, so Roy's camera was recording for at least six minutes without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

[Tulsa Zephyr]

That's exactly how the lights/toggle system works with the camera.  All the news tonight is focusing on how poorly Charlotte, NC is dealing with a somewhat similar situation.  I'm proud that Tulsa is, so far, dealing with this in a much more reasonable, thoughtful, community-wide manner.  I would hope that we could refrain from non-fact based conjecture and give our system time to discern exactly what happened before we start assigning the blame to either the victim or police officer.  Tulsa has chosen the route of transparency and avoided the riot-geared police force which seems to have exacerbated the situation in Charlotte.

[davideinstein]

That's exactly how the lights/toggle system works with the camera.  All the news tonight is focusing on how poorly Charlotte, NC is dealing with a somewhat similar situation.  I'm proud that Tulsa is, so far, dealing with this in a much more reasonable, thoughtful, community-wide manner.  I would hope that we could refrain from non-fact based conjecture and give our system time to discern exactly what happened before we start assigning the blame to either the victim or police officer.  Tulsa has chosen the route of transparency and avoided the riot-geared police force which seems to have exacerbated the situation in Charlotte.

As a North Carolina native living in Tulsa, it's become a sad week. Heartbreaking.

[AquaMan]

I don't think that's how the lights/siren toggle system works with the camera.

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).

About 54 seconds after Mr. Crutcher is shot, Officer Dunn's vehicle passes in front of Shelby's and to the right of Crutcher's.  Dunn's lights are toggled off (to 0 or possibly 1) for a few seconds, but the video continues.  Obviously, Dunn's camera was recording without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

After time mark 42:18 in Officer Roy's video, I don't see the flash of any overhead lights.  About 20 seconds later, the headlights are turned off, also.  However, the video continues until 48:27, so Roy's camera was recording for at least six minutes without the overhead lights toggled on (to 2 or 3).

If the system works like the one on my bus, it runs for 45 minutes after the ignition is turned off. That keeps the operator from trying to just turn off the cameras during a crisis. Of course there are always those who try to disable the system but that in itself is an indictment.

[Weatherdemon]

Here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, if you don't like or trust the police, don't put yourself in a position to have to deal with them.
If you do have to deal with them, be polite and follow their instructions.

That said,
Regardless of what has come out on Crutcher's past, the PCP in his vehicle, and the fact that he certainly appears to not be following the officers instructions, there was absolutely zero reason for him to have been shot. None. There was zero indication of imminent threat. The type of person he was absolutely doesn't matter in this situation as TPD did not even know his name when he was shot.

When she was alone with him and he wasn't following commands, I understand her drawing her firearm due to the size difference between him and her. Once backup arrived, she should have holstered it and pulled out the taser.

Fortunately for Tulsa, We the People is an organization truly committed to going about things correctly and not fanning the flames with the, "this person was a good citizen, father, brother, child, and church goer, who was thinking about improving his life" or the "police are racists rants" but are working peacefully with a police chief who also seems to truly be willing to be open about his department and doing things the right way.



I believe all police departments should have cameras in every car and ideally on every officers chest to protect them and the citizens they work for and those tapes should be released in their entirety(from the time the officers get the call until the call is over) after an incident such as this.

I also think this officer should be arrested and charged now as there is no evidence presented thus far to indicate the shooting was justified at any level.

[AquaMan]

I've seen a few people on PCP or Meth. Never saw one so docile and slow moving. I also have not heard the toxicology test on either the vial or the victim. Perhaps when people say we shouldn't jump to conclusions (media for sure) they ought to consider that.

[erfalf]

Okay, don't take the following as an argument for one side or the other, just stating what Shelby's attorney has said publicly:

Shelby was called to a domestic disturbance complaint (fairly high priority) and left the Gilcrease division on 36th Street North. When approaching Lewis, she sees a man standing in the westbound land staring at the pavement. She considered that fairly odd, the man sees and looks at her and returns to the side of the roadway. She thought about getting out, but the domestic disturbance call was higher priority. After passing through the signal, about 150 feet beyond, she sees the vehicle straddling the center line. She stopped and approached the vehicle, clearing the vehicle from the driver's side, looking for anyone that may have been in distress. She noticed the vehicle was running at this point. She then went to move to the passenger side when she sees Mr. Crutcher approaching her. She was not startled by this, just thinking this was the owner. Asked him if this was his vehicle, and that they needed to get it moved out of the street. He then mumbled something unintelligible under his breath (the only time Mr. Crutcher said anything according to Ms. Shelby). Then he looked at her unusually (she called it a thousand yard stare). She quickly starts to assume he is impaired in some form or another (she is a drug recognition expert). One of his next moves is putting his left hand in his pocket. Off. Shelby then asks him to explain to her what is going on and to please keep his hands out of his pockets. No response. He is asked several more times if this is his vehicle. No responses. He then walks back toward her car, turns toward her and again puts his hand in his pocket. He then walks over to the side of the roadway and then putts his hands up, with no instruction from Off. Shelby. He then moves toward the back of the police car and again raises his hands in the air with no instruction. At this point backup is requested and gun is drawn about this time. Apparently she drew her weapon due to the number of times he had reached for his pocket. His pants were loose enough fitting that she couldn't be certain as to the existence of a weapon. And since Mr. Crutcher had been unresponsive to all of her requests, she had nothing else really to go on (obviously hindsight is 20/20 and he had no gun). Upon arrival several other officers also drew their weapons, having trust in their squad mate that she had assessed the situation appropriately. This is roughly when the video evidence catches up.

They are claiming that a quick move was made by Mr. Crutcher that was perceived to be a move toward the vehicle to retrieve something.

Now my commentary:

There is dispute as to whether or not the window was open or not. I don't know that it really changes the right or wrong actions the officer took. It sounds like she did not truly clear the vehicle for weapons and such prior to Mr. Crutcher arriving, so she could truly be assuming that a weapon may have been present.

It seems to me that there is disinformation being given by all parties involved. The fact that the video from Officer Shelby's vehicle is not available seems quit suspect. Crutcher's team seems to want people to believe his car was just broken down, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Back to my seatbelt anology. Mr. Crutcher appears to have been inebriated. That decision may have ultimately cost him his life, whether justified or not. You cannot leave life up to chance. Not that there is no chance of death for a completely sober Mr. Crutcher, but I imagine the odds of survival are significantly better. It sounds like it's amazing his car didn't end up in a ditch somewhere. Again, not blaming him for being shot, because I still think at this point it seems like an ill fated decision of the officer to take the shot in the first place. Just blaming him for what appears to be really poor decisions, that honestly could have effected other innocent people, and sort of did in the end. Officer Shelby was called by his actions, not the other way around. She did not hunt him down. The altercation was 100% due to his actions.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Here are my thoughts.

First and foremost, if you don't like or trust the police, don't put yourself in a position to have to deal with them.
If you do have to deal with them, be polite and follow their instructions.

That said,
Regardless of what has come out on Crutcher's past, the PCP in his vehicle, and the fact that he certainly appears to not be following the officers instructions, there was absolutely zero reason for him to have been shot. None. There was zero indication of imminent threat. The type of person he was absolutely doesn't matter in this situation as TPD did not even know his name when he was shot.

When she was alone with him and he wasn't following commands, I understand her drawing her firearm due to the size difference between him and her. Once backup arrived, she should have holstered it and pulled out the taser.

Fortunately for Tulsa, We the People is an organization truly committed to going about things correctly and not fanning the flames with the, "this person was a good citizen, father, brother, child, and church goer, who was thinking about improving his life" or the "police are racists rants" but are working peacefully with a police chief who also seems to truly be willing to be open about his department and doing things the right way.



I believe all police departments should have cameras in every car and ideally on every officers chest to protect them and the citizens they work for and those tapes should be released in their entirety(from the time the officers get the call until the call is over) after an incident such as this.

I also think this officer should be arrested and charged now as there is no evidence presented thus far to indicate the shooting was justified at any level.

Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....

[erfalf]

Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....

See my commentary above. You may be wrong on several points (broken car not really broken, unlikely she checked the car thoroughly). And it appears by multiple accounts that he was as high as a kite on something (be it PCP or whatever).

[Weatherdemon]

Big, big disagreement with your first statement - I am thoroughly convinced that if he had the choice, he would have been driving a brand new dependable car - maybe a Lexus?  Or Mercedes? - that would not have broken down.  I know I would be.  There is no way on this planet that he put himself into this position of having to deal with the police.  This is trying to throw it back on him - as in his fault...



As for PCP, that's probably just gonna end up being another one of the lies they tried to push on this deal.  She had already been to the car.  As part of standard operating procedure, no doubt checked it out for weapons and drugs and found nothing.  Closed the doors to "secure" it.  Then sometime after the shooting, this was "found"...??   Right.....

Did you even read my entire statement or just gloss over it?
As I said, if you do have to deal with them, follow the officers directives... which he obviously did not do.

The reports were an abandoned or stalled vehicle blocking traffic... but the vehicle was running so I'm not sure if there was actually a problem with the vehicle or what.

And again, as I said, I still have not seen a single reason for him to have been shot. His actions that I have seen barely justify a taser.

[patric]

If the lights/siren toggle system does work that way with the camera, then after watching the helicopter video, I'd say that Officer Shelby's system must have been toggled to 2 or 3 (with camera on), and couldn't have been 0 or 1 (with camera off).

You only have to watch the released videos to confirm Shelby's top light bar was on.
That potentially represents a minute and a half of dashcam that could explain a lot.

[erfalf]

So are we all deciding to refute every single thing that Shelby has said happened (that I posted above)?

Honestly, if every single thing she said was true, I can still see that she made a gigantic mistake by discharging her weapon.

[AquaMan]

Yes, but the details and how they are released are quite important to the credibility of the officers and the department. If they insist that there was no footage because the lights were off, well, that's damaging. It means either there is another explanation, which they should provide, or they don't want to release that footage because it was damaging and there was an effort to hide or destroy it. Conspiracy.

I would discount most or all of what the attorneys say until there is an official summary. Then the lawyers can argue what is fact.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Did you even read my entire statement or just gloss over it?
As I said, if you do have to deal with them, follow the officers directives... which he obviously did not do.

The reports were an abandoned or stalled vehicle blocking traffic... but the vehicle was running so I'm not sure if there was actually a problem with the vehicle or what.

And again, as I said, I still have not seen a single reason for him to have been shot. His actions that I have seen barely justify a taser.

Yeah.  Then I specifically said I was commenting on the first statement - about avoiding contact with police.  Many times happens through nothing done by an individual.



As for the broken car - there are many failure modes that can occur, rendering a vehicle broken while the engine runs happily on.