President Trump- The Implications

[swake]

Who are these foreign agents you are talking about?

Manafort and Gates. Do please try and keep up.

[erfalf]

The newest really just adds more smoke.  We knew Manafort had connections to Russian backed political interests in Ukraine that drew questions.  We knew Sessions, Flynn, and Kushner "forgot" to mention significant Russian contacts during the campaign.  We knew other high ranking Trump officials had met with Russians using Kremlin approved talking points in an attempt to get Russian help for the election (then lied about it).  Now we know other Trump campaign members were trying to set up meetings between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin.

We also know that Russia badly wanted a Trump win.  They purchased ads, employed trolls, and rolled out bots to hep the campaign.  They hacked the DNC and others and released information to try to help him.  Russian media is still in spin mode to help Trump as much as it can. Trump simply supports Russian interests more (or damages them less) than the Democrats or a hard line conservative would.

In short, we know Russia wanted to help Trump and it seems that the Trump campaign wanted Russian help.  But that's not collusion. It actually seems to make collusion less likely at those stages of the campaign.  If Russia and Trump had some sort of collusion going on it, seems unlikely that they would be fumbling around with various clumsy meetings.

Don't get me wrong, it seems loathsome to me.  It also doesn't rule out something further down the line (how many attempts to collude before you finally succeed?), doesn't rule out a conspiracy of some kind (trying to...), and certainly makes the possibility of crimes trying to cover it up more likely (like George P) or uncovering other ancillary crimes (like Manafort indictment). 

Thins thing gets much bigger before it goes away. 

Kind of been my thoughts for a while too. For two parties whose interests it seemed were so aligned, it sure seemed like they had a hard time coming together, if they in fact did.

The world we live in today is far more connected than it used to be. People (that aren't laundering money) really do business all over the world. It doesn't mean they are colluding with the enemy. None of this is meant to deflect blame, just to make the point that proving actual collusion, or intent, seems to be a pretty big hurdle. It took Mueller how long to figure it out with Manafort, and it seemed pretty obvious to most casual observers that he might be double timing it. And even now, it seems circumstantial that they have proof that was the case. He committed many financial crimes (unsurprisingly), but that isn't treason (yet). Trump's campaign hired him and fired him in a shorter time span than it took Mueller to dig up enough dirt to prosecute him, and with a LOT of power behind him.

[erfalf]

And I don't know if this should be curious or not, but they allowed bail. I think I heard the judge ordered house arrest (could be wrong there too for all I know). Is this unusual or not for charges of this "magnitude"?

[swake]

And I don't know if this should be curious or not, but they allowed bail. I think I heard the judge ordered house arrest (could be wrong there too for all I know). Is this unusual or not for charges of this "magnitude"?

Bail was set for $10 million (Manafort) and $5 million (Gates) and yes, that was to house arrest.

[guido911]

Manafort and Gates. Do please try and keep up.

Thanks Ed. Stupid me thought they were charged with money crimes. Is the issue collusion or what?

[swake]

Thanks Ed. Stupid me thought they were charged with money crimes. Is the issue collusion or what?

Not just money crimes:

Count One: Conspiracy Against The United States
Count Ten: Unregistered Agent of a Foreign Principal
Count Eleven: False and Misleading FARA Statements
Count Twelve: False Statements

[guido911]

D'oh!!!

https://lawnewz.com/high-profile/manafort-indictment-contains-at-least-one-glaring-factual-error/

[erfalf]

D'oh!!!

https://lawnewz.com/high-profile/manafort-indictment-contains-at-least-one-glaring-factual-error/

Look they were indicted. No need to jump off the deep end (again). Count 1 is essentially they conspired to hide money from the federal government...a few years ago. That's the "conspiracy". Had absolutely nothing to do with some Dr. Evil take over the world through the white house scheme. Not a deflection, just a dose of reality. Again, there is absolutely no need to exaggerate to such extreme levels. It just makes having a discussion impossible, or agreeing on anything even more impossible.

I also notice too that they charge they they were an unregistered agent of a foreign principal up through 2014. Having little knowledge of Manafort, does this mean that since that point it was not necessary for him to register as a foreign agent, or he was already registered?

[erfalf]

Oh, I found it, they ended up registering. Apparently it's not an every year thing like a car tag. Once you do, you are registered for that government you are representing.

[erfalf]

Another thing, count 2, the money laundering count. I knew Manafort may have been playing it multiple ways, but money laundering must contain the element of the money was first ill gotten through some illegal activity. Maybe he has partaken in these types of things, but that really hasn't been the contention that has been made up to this point.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Sadly this is probably correct. This has already degenerated/morphed into something not contemplated. Now we are talking about Uranium 1, Hillary, and other things that is just crazy.

As if that and all the other "go to" BS stories by Trump haven't been investigated to death and found to have no substance.  (emails, Benghazi, Whitewater, et al, ad nauseum)

[guido911]

Look they were indicted. No need to jump off the deep end (again).

What are you talking about? Are you trying to educate me on the content of a criminal indictment? If so, I'd love for you to share with me your trove of criminal law and procedure knowledge.

[erfalf]

What are you talking about? Are you trying to educate me on the content of a criminal indictment? If so, I'd love for you to share with me your trove of criminal law and procedure knowledge.

I actually had intended to quote one of swake comments imediately proceeding yours. Must have hit yours by accident. I believe he was making the case the Manafort and co were consipiring against the country or something.

Truly not a swipe at you at all (well, not intentionally anyway).

[Ed W]

Not just money crimes:

Count One: Conspiracy Against The United States
Count Ten: Unregistered Agent of a Foreign Principal
Count Eleven: False and Misleading FARA Statements
Count Twelve: False Statements

Thanks for covering that for me. I've been busy with other things.

[patric]

Bail was set for $10 million (Manafort) and $5 million (Gates) and yes, that was to house arrest.

Bail for House Arrest?  Wet noodle.