Promenade Mall

[ELG4America]

I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

That half of the big parking garage is owned by Macy's. They've made a half-hearted attempt to block access to the upper levels, probably an attempt to defer any liability if something happens there, turning out all the lights is unsurprising.

That parking garage is total >2,000 spaces if memory serves. A redevelopment that bulldozed the front parking garage and created an indoor-outdoor hybrid mall with apartments and a hotel would almost definitely work in that area. Unfortunately, I'm probably talking about a $100-200 million redevelopment on the cheap end.

[DowntownDan]

This is one I'm familar with. Doesn't need to be as grand and certainly not a billion dollars, but it's location is good and can have a nice mix of things if done right.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/collin-creek-mall-redevelopment-project-begins-with-a-bang/2751211/

[SXSW]

This is one I'm familar with. Doesn't need to be as grand and certainly not a billion dollars, but it's location is good and can have a nice mix of things if done right.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/collin-creek-mall-redevelopment-project-begins-with-a-bang/2751211/

That looks like it could be a good model for Promenade.  Maybe they could still keep some of the parking structures intact. 

[LandArchPoke]

That half of the big parking garage is owned by Macy's. They've made a half-hearted attempt to block access to the upper levels, probably an attempt to defer any liability if something happens there, turning out all the lights is unsurprising.

That parking garage is total >2,000 spaces if memory serves. A redevelopment that bulldozed the front parking garage and created an indoor-outdoor hybrid mall with apartments and a hotel would almost definitely work in that area. Unfortunately, I'm probably talking about a $100-200 million redevelopment on the cheap end.

They're probably only a couple years away from having to block off the parking garage because it's not structural sound enough for cars. I drove through it a few years ago to the top and it was in really really bad shape. The amount of sagging, etc. of the concrete was frankly alarming and I know they haven't put money into fixing that.

Promenade is an example of the cycle of mall ownership. It's in the stage that you have capital investors who are just wanting the depreciation off it essentially and have enough rent to make a modest return and will just wait for the property to go into receivership (which I think it might have already went through one receivership a year or two ago).

Hopefully someone who has the ability to redevelop it buys it before the parking garages are beyond repairable. Frankly those are the most valuable things on the site if you demoed the entire mall and rebuilt as a mixed-use development with apartments and ground floor retail spaces. Being able to do that without having to spending any money on a new parking garage makes that idea a lot more economically feasible.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

City North in north Phoenix is a development that would fit in the footprint of Promenade. It was originally started in 2004 or 2005 but stalled for a number of years after the financial meltdown. It's just under 1mil sq ft and contains businesses, shopping dining and some residential. The project has started developing again in the las year or so with more growth just east of it.

https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA

The one thing that I noticed with the Collin Creek mall, and it applies to the Paradise Valley mall and Metro Center projects is that the areas of redevelopment are inside the ring road around the mall, with established businesses outside the ring road remaining in place. Metro has an already established super Wally World Paradise Valley has a Costco, both have public libraries and bus stops built in, and I believe Metro Center will have a light rail stop with the next expansion project.

City North Google Map
https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA

Light Rail to Metro Center project
https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/construction-on-light-rail-extension-in-north-phoenix-begins-in-august,174997

[swake]

They're probably only a couple years away from having to block off the parking garage because it's not structural sound enough for cars. I drove through it a few years ago to the top and it was in really really bad shape. The amount of sagging, etc. of the concrete was frankly alarming and I know they haven't put money into fixing that.

Promenade is an example of the cycle of mall ownership. It's in the stage that you have capital investors who are just wanting the depreciation off it essentially and have enough rent to make a modest return and will just wait for the property to go into receivership (which I think it might have already went through one receivership a year or two ago).

Hopefully someone who has the ability to redevelop it buys it before the parking garages are beyond repairable. Frankly those are the most valuable things on the site if you demoed the entire mall and rebuilt as a mixed-use development with apartments and ground floor retail spaces. Being able to do that without having to spending any money on a new parking garage makes that idea a lot more economically feasible.

I thought the garage on the 41st street side was already closed as unsafe.

[Tulsan]

Tulsa County is buying Macy's for the new home of the Election Board.  They'll take part of the parking garage as well.

[DowntownDan]

Tulsa County is buying Macy's for the new home of the Election Board.  They'll take part of the parking garage as well.

Sort of sounds like a death knell for any larger scale mixed use development, but maybe I'm just jaded.

[LandArchPoke]

Sort of sounds like a death knell for any larger scale mixed use development, but maybe I'm just jaded.

Having office space in that building I don't think would hamper redevelopment too much, the Macys building is in decent shape compared to the rest. The part that needs to be demoed is the mall portion. Depending on how the county renovates it, could bring some much needed foot traffic and users to the site.

I thought the garage on the 41st street side was already closed as unsafe.

I was talking about the garage on the south end of the property that is attached to the old Macys building along 43rd. If you go to the top levels the sagging of concrete and other issues is pretty alarming and that was a few years ago - it's only gotten worse.

Maybe with the county buying that building that will fix that garage to preserve it. Having that parking structure would be huge to allowing the rest of the site to be redeveloped in a more dense way without having a large expense for new structured parking. 

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Having office space in that building I don't think would hamper redevelopment too much, the Macys building is in decent shape compared to the rest. The part that needs to be demoed is the mall portion. Depending on how the county renovates it, could bring some much needed foot traffic and users to the site I was talking about the garage on the south end of the property that is attached to the old Macys building along 43rd. If you go to the top levels the sagging of concrete and other issues is pretty alarming and that was a few years ago - it's only gotten worse.

Maybe with the county buying that building that will fix that garage to preserve it. Having that parking structure would be huge to allowing the rest of the site to be redeveloped in a more dense way without having a large expense for new structured parking.  

Yeah, the Macy's building is the newest section of the mall. If you go back in time on Google Earth you can see where they extended the Dillard's and the Froug's buildings after they enclosed the mall. Even the skylight sections are where the old entrances were to the interior when it was Southland. The biggest problem I think is the way the whole thing was cobbled together when they enclosed it. It's like the Winchester Mystery House.

I have an aerial photo from a 1967 USGS survey that I will try and post when I get home from work that shows the original mall shape.

1967



1995



2020

[dbacksfan 2.0]

I was out and checked on the progress of the Paradise Valley and Metro Center projects.

Paradise Valley being done by Red Development https://www.reddevelopment.com/properties/ is moving along. They started demo in July and have about 2/3rds of the mall (circled) taken down and ground work is moving forward. The blue dot is were photos were taken, south is to the top of the overhead.



Southeast


South


Southwest


Red Development's best work is City Scape in downtown Phoenix built during the 2008 to 2012 time frame. https://www.reddevelopment.com/properties/cityscape/

Metro Center has not completed all of the paperwork, but Hines Intelligent Real Estate https://www.hines.com/locations/southwest-region/properties has plans to demo in 2022 and be going vertical in 2023. The red line in the overhead is where the light rail line is. The  Google Maps link is the most recent as the bridge section over I-17 was placed two weeks ago.

https://goo.gl/maps/yHwZiaFCk7eKewgY9

[buffalodan]

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-oilers-want-former-macys-at-promenade-for-public-rink-practice-space/article_57679704-b052-11ec-82a6-1f2ff97e47b5.html

Did not have "ice rink" in my top 50 options even.

[ComeOnBenjals]

I like it..

[SXSW]

I wonder if OU would takeover the Promenade property, or a portion of it, for their proposed Polytechnic Institute

https://nondoc.com/2022/05/13/ou-polytechnic-institute-planned-tulsa/

[SXSW]

More on the Polytechnic Institute that will be located at OU-Tulsa across the street

NORMAN — With corporate interest growing in the northeast corner of the state, the University of Oklahoma is planning a new technology school in Tulsa to meet workforce demand.

OU Polytechnic Institute would operate on the OU-Tulsa campus, pending approval next month from the OU Board of Regents and later from the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education. 

OU President Joseph Harroz Jr. announced the launch at a Friday meeting of the university regents in Norman. A date for the institute to open has not been determined.

The institute would serve students in the final two years of their undergraduate degree and would offer master's and doctoral degrees. 

The move could create a greater foothold for OU in northeast Oklahoma, where university leaders seek a greater presence and clearer identity.

It was "simply neglectful" for OU not to have these courses available in Tulsa, said Frank Keating, chairperson of the OU regents, former governor and Tulsa native.