UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244

[Weatherdemon]

Is there any way for OSU (or OU or both) to absorb TCC, award associate degrees, while ensuring that all (or most) credits are applied towards a bachelors degree if a student so chooses? Maybe TCC as a junior college could be the IUPUI in this scenario with much clearer bachelor paths at OU and OSU Tulsa campuses. It seems that TCC is always raised as a roadblock to a full 4-year public university in Tulsa. Just spitballing here, seems like we always end up in the same place with this discussion.

TCC has OSU sponsored programs that do just that.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Honestly this shouldn't be that hard, plenty of cities have a community college system and a public satellite of the state university that co-exist.  I mentioned Omaha because it is a similarly sized city and one of our peer cities.  They have Metropolitan Community College which like TCC awards associates degrees and has multiple campuses.  They also have a University of Nebraska-Omaha (similar to our OSU or OU-Tulsa) but is its own independent university that also functions as the urban satellite campus for the flagship university in Lincoln (about the distance from Omaha as Stillwater is to Tulsa).  Except that UNO has 15k students in a variety of undergrad and graduate programs, some of which are exclusive to the Omaha campus and others offered at both campuses.  

Why can Nebraska figure this out and we can't?  

Probably simplicity and population concentration. Nebraska has 1 very large city and other large city pretty close by, while Oklahoma has 2 very large metros in different parts of the state which spreads out resources. I'm guessing citizens of Nebraska demanded a public university in the largest city in the state. OSU is just close enough to Tulsa to say its the equivalent of OU to OKC and Tulsa is serviced by a number of public universities as it stands (and has been serviced by TCC, TU and ORU for a long time). I don't think another 4-year university is very high up the list of wants for most Tulsans.

On this board, we likely all agree we need 4-year options for OU and OSU in Tulsa, but it isn't exactly a must-have and certainly isn't a priority for state leaders. They certainly don't want to increase education spending or spend a lot to create more competition for OU/OSU.

[SXSW]

Probably simplicity and population concentration. Nebraska has 1 very large city and other large city pretty close by, while Oklahoma has 2 very large metros in different parts of the state which spreads out resources. I'm guessing citizens of Nebraska demanded a public university in the largest city in the state. OSU is just close enough to Tulsa to say its the equivalent of OU to OKC and Tulsa is serviced by a number of public universities as it stands (and has been serviced by TCC, TU and ORU for a long time). I don't think another 4-year university is very high up the list of wants for most Tulsans.

On this board, we likely all agree we need 4-year options for OU and OSU in Tulsa, but it isn't exactly a must-have and certainly isn't a priority for state leaders. They certainly don't want to increase education spending or spend a lot to create more competition for OU/OSU.

I think both OU and OSU would benefit from having a greater presence and more offerings in Tulsa, if some of the aforementioned barriers are removed.  10k students at each one should be attainable goal with OSU focusing more on science/technology/engineering and OU focusing more on arts and sciences/health sciences with its combined medical program with TU (OU-TU School of Community Medicine). 

If TU could get up to 6k along the 4k at ORU and 20k at TCC plus another 20k at OU and OSU, then you are talking about 50k college students in Tulsa (not including RSU in Claremore and NSU in Broken Arrow).

[TheArtist]

I think both OU and OSU would benefit from having a greater presence and more offerings in Tulsa, if some of the aforementioned barriers are removed.  10k students at each one should be attainable goal with OSU focusing more on science/technology/engineering and OU focusing more on arts and sciences/health sciences with its combined medical program with TU (OU-TU School of Community Medicine). 

If TU could get up to 6k along the 4k at ORU and 20k at TCC plus another 20k at OU and OSU, then you are talking about 50k college students in Tulsa (not including RSU in Claremore and NSU in Broken Arrow).

Will be interesting to see how ORU evolves over time.  Many of the greatest universities in the world started out as religious based, but over the generations evolved to become more "secular". 

[DowntownDan]

TCC has OSU sponsored programs that do just that.

My understanding is that it is very complicated. I've heard stories of kids being told the class will transfer to find out that it doesn't. I'm talking true synergy which may only be possible if TCC is an actual part of or branch of OU, OSU, or both.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

My understanding is that it is very complicated. I've heard stories of kids being told the class will transfer to find out that it doesn't. I'm talking true synergy which may only be possible if TCC is an actual part of or branch of OU, OSU, or both.

There will always be a big need for TCC how it currently is. It is extremely cheap and extremely easy. It's a great place to learn how to study for college and figure out first hand if college is for you. For those on the edge or those looking to save a lot of cash, you can get momentum at TCC then transfer to a real university. At the same time, some classes don't prepare you well at all for university so there's a risk too (for example, all the math courses I took at TCC were borderline worthless for preparing for science disciplines at TU even though some transferred).

Some classes will not transfer, but that can be determined ahead of time and there's always a risk you'll take some classes that won't but you're still better off having gained that knowledge and experience to help with the expensive courses at a 4-year university. I hope TCC basically stays as-is. I remember they had charts for which classes transfer to which universities. Just sticking to ones that work for all 3 keeps your options open. Some classes are fun/interesting and worth it regardless of whether they transfer.

Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here. Without a comprehensive residential 4-year university experience, it'll be like commuter campuses and won't have the campus lifestyle advantage that Norman and Stillwater can offer. OSU Tulsa needs to go all in to offer that and utilize the amazing real estate it has right by the Arts District.

[Dspike]

Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here.

They don't even get to contemplate competing because the legislature gave TCC a monopoly on first and second year courses. OU and OSU cannot offer them, full stop. And I remain at a loss to understand the public interest behind limiting competition in first and second year university courses in Tulsa County.

[heironymouspasparagus]

They don't even get to contemplate competing because the legislature gave TCC a monopoly on first and second year courses. OU and OSU cannot offer them, full stop. And I remain at a loss to understand the public interest behind limiting competition in first and second year university courses in Tulsa County.

Public interest has nothing to do with it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

There will always be a big need for TCC how it currently is. It is extremely cheap and extremely easy. It's a great place to learn how to study for college and figure out first hand if college is for you. For those on the edge or those looking to save a lot of cash, you can get momentum at TCC then transfer to a real university. At the same time, some classes don't prepare you well at all for university so there's a risk too (for example, all the math courses I took at TCC were borderline worthless for preparing for science disciplines at TU even though some transferred).

Some classes will not transfer, but that can be determined ahead of time and there's always a risk you'll take some classes that won't but you're still better off having gained that knowledge and experience to help with the expensive courses at a 4-year university. I hope TCC basically stays as-is. I remember they had charts for which classes transfer to which universities. Just sticking to ones that work for all 3 keeps your options open. Some classes are fun/interesting and worth it regardless of whether they transfer.

Maybe OU/OSU don't really want to compete with TCC prices which is a real risk if they offer 4-years here. Without a comprehensive residential 4-year university experience, it'll be like commuter campuses and won't have the campus lifestyle advantage that Norman and Stillwater can offer. OSU Tulsa needs to go all in to offer that and utilize the amazing real estate it has right by the Arts District.

Don't know how it is now - been a long time since I went there - but I got along ok with an electronics associates at about 3.1 gpa.  Walked into OSU (late 70's) in EE and got 4.0 the first semester.  Granted, it was only 17 hours with 2 labs and commuting every class day from Tulsa to Stillwater, but still, did ok.  Was kinda surprised how easy Differential Equations was there compared to Calculus here.  Had a professor (Dr. Rup Kaul) at TJC who REALLY taught Calculus...it wasn't the easy ride one might expect of Calc II.   There was another instructor there named Larry something (?) who was a very good teacher, too!  Can't remember his name...  Finished up in 1.5 years at about 3.85.  Not the greatest, but was also working part time to support family.

Several classes would not transfer, so did about 12 hours of "catchup" work at TU that did transfer so could go there and get it done in one pass.  Worked out good.  Then got to come back to TU for grad school - and everyone knows how much easier that is than undergrad!   Just keep the advisor happy and it is smooth sailing!!   Why not go to TU for BS?  Well, it was expensive then, too, plus I knew I wanted to do grad work there, so didn't want two sequential degrees from same school.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

Don't know how it is now - been a long time since I went there - but I got along ok with an electronics associates at about 3.1 gpa.  Walked into OSU (late 70's) in EE and got 4.0 the first semester.  Granted, it was only 17 hours with 2 labs and commuting every class day from Tulsa to Stillwater, but still, did ok.  Was kinda surprised how easy Differential Equations was there compared to Calculus here.  Had a professor (Dr. Rup Kaul) at TJC who REALLY taught Calculus...it wasn't the easy ride one might expect of Calc II.   There was another instructor there named Larry something (?) who was a very good teacher, too!  Can't remember his name...  Finished up in 1.5 years at about 3.85.  Not the greatest, but was also working part time to support family.

Several classes would not transfer, so did about 12 hours of "catchup" work at TU that did transfer so could go there and get it done in one pass.  Worked out good.  Then got to come back to TU for grad school - and everyone knows how much easier that is than undergrad!   Just keep the advisor happy and it is smooth sailing!!   Why not go to TU for BS?  Well, it was expensive then, too, plus I knew I wanted to do grad work there, so didn't want two sequential degrees from same school.

I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.

[Jacobei]

I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.

I had an opposite experience.  After leaving TCC I walked into a junior level accounting course where they hadn't even covered the accounting cycle yet.  The languages courses were behind where I was.   Different than Calc, I know, but a very different experience comparing the two schools.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I took Calc I & II at TU and they were incredibly difficult. I graduated near top of my HS which is one of the better ranked ones in the area, but it did not prepare me for TU. Somehow, I got a waiver to take Differential Equations at TCC over the summer (because it wasn't offered at TU during that time). It was a joke. It was so easy. I remember fixing a number of problems for the professor which were either written incorrectly or had incorrect answers given by him. Embarrassingly simple class that did nothing to help me at TU but gave me an easy pass and credits for a class which would've been a tremendous effort at TU.

I also took Calc II at TU - one of my 'makeup' courses before grad school - about 9 yrs after first time.  Worked out well, cause I had forgotten some of the stuff I really needed later.  TU was rigorous, but was definitely 'review' due to the instructors I had before.  Others seemed to have quite a bit more trouble.   I downloaded the MIT Calc class videos last year and have been slowly going through them as refresher for some modeling I am trying to do.  Even after all this time, I still have "ah-ha" moments of enlightenment because it is coming back a lot easier than it was to learn the first time!  Maybe I don't have Alzheimer's after all - the short term memory seems to actually be working along with long term...  mostly!



 

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

I had an opposite experience.  After leaving TCC I walked into a junior level accounting course where they hadn't even covered the accounting cycle yet.  The languages courses were behind where I was.   Different than Calc, I know, but a very different experience comparing the two schools.

I took at least 6 classes at TCC including economics and they were all so elementary compared to anything at TU. The entire classwork took so little time and effort to make As on. At TU, even the easiest fluff classes took some work like Political Science or Engineering Economics (those were probably the 2 easiest classes I took at TU, but still required quite a bit of studying, homework and some effort to get an A).

[swake]

And on the other end of the spectrum my daughter went to TU for one semester and had a hard time getting her college to accept the hours. And they didn't accept all of them.

[TulsaGoldenHurriCAN]

And on the other end of the spectrum my daughter went to TU for one semester and had a hard time getting her college to accept the hours. And they didn't accept all of them.

That has nothing to do with how "difficult" or useful a university course is. Many colleges don't accept certain credits because they want to encourage students to take more of their own classes and discourage taking classes elsewhere.

But this is you we're talking about so you probably either misquoted her or just didn't understand the nuances of it.