UCAT v. TDA, land development north of 244

[ELG4America]

I've always thought this too. I still think TCC should sell off the metro campus for redevelopment and then build a new campus on the OSU Tulsa campus... then it would act and feel like a four year university. You could do your first two years and then transfer to OSU while never having to switch campuses and you'd also promote better collaboration between various groups. You'd also create a much higher demand for student housing around the campus.

I think they should also do the same thing near OU Tulsa if TCC bought Promenade. Tear out the middle portion of the enclosed mall and convert the department stores into classroom space and then turn the middle portion of the mall into an outdoor lifestyle center type retail. You could also build student housing too on the surface lots and you already have several parking garages to accommodate parking for all the development. You'd then have two campuses in Tulsa that function just like a four year university in a relatively short time without the political battle of TCC versus OSU/OU.

Make the courses offered at these two locations align with what degrees are being offered at OSU/OU so the transition is seamless (which is already is pretty easy to transfer between both)

Then turn Southeast into the main TCC campus with the West and North campuses as satellite campuses. 

One of the biggest problems with Tulsa higher ed is it is so fragmented and there's no critical mass to any one campus that creates any larger economic driver around it that you see around larger schools in major cities.

I immediately dismissed your idea but the more I think about it the more i think it could work. The downtown campus would be difficult to get a fair price for in the near term (it's on quite valuable land and is quite large but could be difficult to adapt to a new use) but perhaps as part of a 10 year plan funded by a bond initiative it could work.

I've long thought that Promenade should become a mixed use development tied to OU
but I couldn't ever make the investment make sense given that OU Tulsa on its own is unlikely to have a large student population. I think integrating TCC would fix that problem. Then upgrade the Masters and Doctoral level programs at each university, avoiding overlap, and Tulsa goes from being an also ran to a major college town in maybe a decade.

Only problem is the imminent collapse of the American University system as we know it.

[DowntownDan]

I've always thought this too. I still think TCC should sell off the metro campus for redevelopment and then build a new campus on the OSU Tulsa campus... then it would act and feel like a four year university. You could do your first two years and then transfer to OSU while never having to switch campuses and you'd also promote better collaboration between various groups. You'd also create a much higher demand for student housing around the campus.

I think they should also do the same thing near OU Tulsa if TCC bought Promenade. Tear out the middle portion of the enclosed mall and convert the department stores into classroom space and then turn the middle portion of the mall into an outdoor lifestyle center type retail. You could also build student housing too on the surface lots and you already have several parking garages to accommodate parking for all the development. You'd then have two campuses in Tulsa that function just like a four year university in a relatively short time without the political battle of TCC versus OSU/OU.

Make the courses offered at these two locations align with what degrees are being offered at OSU/OU so the transition is seamless (which is already is pretty easy to transfer between both)

Then turn Southeast into the main TCC campus with the West and North campuses as satellite campuses. 

One of the biggest problems with Tulsa higher ed is it is so fragmented and there's no critical mass to any one campus that creates any larger economic driver around it that you see around larger schools in major cities.

I've had this exact thought. It's the only practicable solution that allows TCC to remain as it's own two year institution while seamlessly incorporating into four-year degrees at OSU-T or OU-T as a student might desire. I recall TCC and OSU-T marketing their collaboration for four year degrees in Tulsa. This would just be the most logical step to make that bond closer, seamless, and appeal to those who look for higher ed when relocating to a city, which was much talked about after the Chamber's visit to Columbus, Ohio. And the SE campus has by far the most Community College feel to it and would be perfect for those who are devoted solely to a two year degree. Ideally, it would be free for anyone who has the grades in high school

[SXSW]

I've had this exact thought. It's the only practicable solution that allows TCC to remain as it's own two year institution while seamlessly incorporating into four-year degrees at OSU-T or OU-T as a student might desire. I recall TCC and OSU-T marketing their collaboration for four year degrees in Tulsa. This would just be the most logical step to make that bond closer, seamless, and appeal to those who look for higher ed when relocating to a city, which was much talked about after the Chamber's visit to Columbus, Ohio. And the SE campus has by far the most Community College feel to it and would be perfect for those who are devoted solely to a two year degree. Ideally, it would be free for anyone who has the grades in high school

I think you could easily consolidate most of TCC Metro's existing classroom, lab and office space in two or three new buildings on the OSU-Tulsa campus.  Plenty of room on the parking lots on the east and west sides.  I could see a future downtown school or similar educational institution moving into the current TCC space, especially if aided by a bond package through CoT or gifted by one of the local philanthropies.  I imagine the TCC Center of Creativity would remain in its current location.

[LandArchPoke]

I think you could easily consolidate most of TCC Metro's existing classroom, lab and office space in two or three new buildings on the OSU-Tulsa campus.  Plenty of room on the parking lots on the east and west sides.  I could see a future downtown school or similar educational institution moving into the current TCC space, especially if aided by a bond package through CoT or gifted by one of the local philanthropies.  I imagine the TCC Center of Creativity would remain in its current location.

I've thought the Center of Creativity would make a great conversion into a modern art museum and could be expanded onto the parking lot to the west. Create a Tulsa Museum of Modern Art and it be a partnership between Philbrook/Gilcrease and OSU/TCC and move the modern art collection from Philbrook there and could move some of the Gilcrease collection there that's appropriate that's in storage now. OSU/TCC could help operate the museum similar to the TU partnership with Gilcrease. Philbrook's downtown location didn't do very well because it was such a small exhibit space.

Or, turn that building into the Route 66 Museum... it's right on Route 66 and would be a much bigger destination than the smaller proposed location off Lewis.

The other buildings you could re-clad and convert them into a mix of office, hotel, and ground floor retail. Then build infill on the other parking lots with a common parking garage for the neighborhood.

Ideally, if someone like GKFF or a community group would step in and do this versus a for profit developer and use the funds from this to go back toward expanding the combined OSU/TCC campus.

I think TCC has an enrollment of 20,000. OSU has a total enrollment of 25,000 and OU has a total enrollment of 31,000. TCC is essentially the 3rd largest university in the state while only offering two years of classes. If we could manage to integrate TCC a bit better and get a higher percentage of those completing associates to go through OSU/OU in Tulsa to get bachelors we could increase the number of degrees granted in the state and city a lot.

Let's face it, there is certainly not 5,000 - 10,000 students transferring and moving to Norman or Stillwater every year after finishing their associates, so figuring out a way to get people who can't move to be able to get more advanced degrees is a win/win for everyone and isn't going to cannibalize the main campuses of OSU or OU. The kids that go to the main campus are going there for the college experience on the main campus and to be at a Big 12 school and that will never be recreated in Tulsa. Unfortunately, not everyone has that luxury to be able to do that and we're hurting the people who can't uproot themselves from Tulsa in fear it might have some minor impact to enrollment on the main campuses.

Having consolidated campuses would help create more demand for housing having closer to 7,500 to 10,000 students at both OSU Tulsa and OU Tulsa would make it feasible to build student housing and other commercial uses around the campuses compared to the current sizes.   

[TulsaBeMore]

This is what drives me nuts. A decision on if 1st and 2nd year courses can be offered in Tulsa at OSU and OU is likely to continue to be made to protect the health and prosperity of TCC, not the education and prosperity of the community and citizens of Tulsa. Which of course TCC was created to support.

If it were up to me, TCC downtown would become part of OSU Tulsa and TCC Southeast would become part of NSU Broken Arrow. Those schools would then be intended, at two price points, to serve 4 year degree seeking students in metro Tulsa. The other TCC campuses can remain as a community college focusing on students that are seeking 2 year degree, vocational education or students that may have not been very successful in high school working their way to qualifying for a 4 year school.

On the face of it, this sounds good-reasonable.   

[TulsaBeMore]

I immediately dismissed your idea but the more I think about it the more i think it could work. The downtown campus would be difficult to get a fair price for in the near term (it's on quite valuable land and is quite large but could be difficult to adapt to a new use) but perhaps as part of a 10 year plan funded by a bond initiative it could work.

I've long thought that Promenade should become a mixed use development tied to OU
but I couldn't ever make the investment make sense given that OU Tulsa on its own is unlikely to have a large student population. I think integrating TCC would fix that problem. Then upgrade the Masters and Doctoral level programs at each university, avoiding overlap, and Tulsa goes from being an also ran to a major college town in maybe a decade.

Only problem is the imminent collapse of the American University system as we know it.

The last sentence may be the most important.  The other idea is intriguing. 

[SXSW]

The last sentence may be the most important.  The other idea is intriguing.  

Many of the small liberal arts schools scattered throughout the country will not survive.  Many of these schools are in small towns in the midwest and northeast.  Look at schools like St Gregory's in Shawnee that have recently closed.

Within public education the flagship universities in each state are safe even if they have to rely more on private dollars vs. state funding.  In most states the state-funded urban research universities are some of the fastest-growing, like UTSA in San Antonio, CU-Denver, UNO in Omaha, etc  This is what has been missing in Oklahoma, and where Tulsa will eventually capitalize on not only having one state-funded "satellite" university but two within city limits.  OKC has OU 20 miles away in the same metro and the OUHSC as well as OSU-OKC which is more of a trade school like OSU-Okmulgee.

Outside of the two urban centers in Oklahoma and the major college towns like Norman and Stillwater you may see consolidation in the rural state universities.  I think NSU in Tahlequah is probably safe, and possibly SWOSU in Weatherford and Cameron in Lawton.  But schools like SEOSU in Durant, ECOSU in Ada, NWOSU in Alva and especially OPSU in Goodwell probably should close with resources allocated to the flagship schools and urban schools in Tulsa.

[TulsaBeMore]

Many of the small liberal arts schools scattered throughout the country will not survive.  Many of these schools are in small towns in the midwest and northeast.  Look at schools like St Gregory's in Shawnee that have recently closed.

Within public education the flagship universities in each state are safe even if they have to rely more on private dollars vs. state funding.  In most states the state-funded urban research universities are some of the fastest-growing, like UTSA in San Antonio, CU-Denver, UNO in Omaha, etc  This is what has been missing in Oklahoma, and where Tulsa will eventually capitalize on not only having one state-funded "satellite" university but two within city limits.  OKC has OU 20 miles away in the same metro and the OUHSC as well as OSU-OKC which is more of a trade school like OSU-Okmulgee.

Outside of the two urban centers in Oklahoma and the major college towns like Norman and Stillwater you may see consolidation in the rural state universities.  I think NSU in Tahlequah is probably safe, and possibly SWOSU in Weatherford and Cameron in Lawton.  But schools like SEOSU in Durant, ECOSU in Ada, NWOSU in Alva and especially OPSU in Goodwell probably should close with resources allocated to the flagship schools and urban schools in Tulsa.

Would like to see TU play into this space more --- expand into health big time or something.  Seems like TU is at a crossroads.  What it is vs. what it could/should be.   

[swake]

Would like to see TU play into this space more --- expand into health big time or something.  Seems like TU is at a crossroads.  What it is vs. what it could/should be.   

TU did just start a medical school.

[ELG4America]

Many of the small liberal arts schools scattered throughout the country will not survive.  Many of these schools are in small towns in the midwest and northeast.  Look at schools like St Gregory's in Shawnee that have recently closed.

Within public education the flagship universities in each state are safe even if they have to rely more on private dollars vs. state funding.  In most states the state-funded urban research universities are some of the fastest-growing, like UTSA in San Antonio, CU-Denver, UNO in Omaha, etc  This is what has been missing in Oklahoma, and where Tulsa will eventually capitalize on not only having one state-funded "satellite" university but two within city limits.  OKC has OU 20 miles away in the same metro and the OUHSC as well as OSU-OKC which is more of a trade school like OSU-Okmulgee.

Outside of the two urban centers in Oklahoma and the major college towns like Norman and Stillwater you may see consolidation in the rural state universities.  I think NSU in Tahlequah is probably safe, and possibly SWOSU in Weatherford and Cameron in Lawton.  But schools like SEOSU in Durant, ECOSU in Ada, NWOSU in Alva and especially OPSU in Goodwell probably should close with resources allocated to the flagship schools and urban schools in Tulsa.

I agree that OU and OSU are likely to survive. I'm not sure about TU or ORU. They're both very expensive schools without the brand cachet of Harvard or MIT or Stanford. As the most powerful brands in education (Ivy league and other top flight schools) expand their online presence and grant more and more degrees they are going to absorb more and more of the money flowing into education. It's a classic high-low market crunch. The middle will get destroyed as the premium brands expand supply and value brands increase quality.

So, positioning OUT and OSUT to be as strong as possible is probably one of the most vital issues facing Tulsa, especially if the privates are not long for this world.

[swake]

I agree that OU and OSU are likely to survive. I'm not sure about TU or ORU. They're both very expensive schools without the brand cachet of Harvard or MIT or Stanford. As the most powerful brands in education (Ivy league and other top flight schools) expand their online presence and grant more and more degrees they are going to absorb more and more of the money flowing into education. It's a classic high-low market crunch. The middle will get destroyed as the premium brands expand supply and value brands increase quality.

So, positioning OUT and OSUT to be as strong as possible is probably one of the most vital issues facing Tulsa, especially if the privates are not long for this world.

TU will be fine in the long run with their billion dollar plus endowment. ORU is another matter.

[SXSW]

TU will be fine in the long run with their billion dollar plus endowment. ORU is another matter.

Agree TU will be fine especially if GKFF has anything to do it (which they do).  I don't see the evangelical community letting ORU fade away but of the local schools that would be the one that I would be the most concerned about.  They have their own benefactor in David Green that will likely sustain them for awhile.

[SXSW]

The Tulsa Development Authority issued an RFP late last year for proposals to redevelop the TDA properties north of downtown.  I never did hear about the outcome or maybe I missed it?  These are the empty lots between Boulder and MLK

[Tulsan]

They appear to have chosen wrtdesign.com as consultant. It's a design shop out of Philly. Lots of pretty pictures on their website. https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/departments/finance/selling-to-the-city/current-bid-opportunities/rfp-20-711-kirkpatrick-heights-addition-and-greenwood-site-master-plan/


As for status - no news. There is a nugget buried in the May 2020 TDA General Counsel's Report stating, "Planning for development of the Property is presently being conducted by consultants retained by the City of Tulsa. In progress." https://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org//wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Litigation-Report-5-7-2020-Combined.pdf

[SXSW]

They appear to have chosen wrtdesign.com as consultant. It's a design shop out of Philly. Lots of pretty pictures on their website. https://www.cityoftulsa.org/government/departments/finance/selling-to-the-city/current-bid-opportunities/rfp-20-711-kirkpatrick-heights-addition-and-greenwood-site-master-plan/


As for status - no news. There is a nugget buried in the May 2020 TDA General Counsel's Report stating, "Planning for development of the Property is presently being conducted by consultants retained by the City of Tulsa. In progress." https://www.tulsadevelopmentauthority.org//wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Litigation-Report-5-7-2020-Combined.pdf

Great news and WRT looks like the right design firm for this based on their past experience.  Hopefully whoever ends up developing these parcels can also acquire the Salvation Army property at Fairview & Main.  

I've always thought the blocks north of 244 and south of John Hope Franklin should be higher density 3-4 story apartments/condos with the blocks to the north between John Hope Franklin and Independence as 2-3 story townhomes.  Where Boulder and Main intersect at JHF there could be a cool Flatiron-style building.  Many of the existing stoops are still in place from the homes that were bulldozed during urban renewal.

Something with a similar density as this area around Centennial Park: