Should We Abolish ICE?

[patric]

Even some ICE officials see that as a good idea to stem the abuse from above.

The child of a forced marriage between two defunct federal agencies — The United States Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service — ICE has long struggled to balance its dual roles of transnational criminal investigations and deportations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/ice-immigration-eliminate-agency.html


...and there is a fair amount of momentum:

From L.A. to N.Y., hundreds of thousands join nationwide rallies to protest Trump's immigration policies
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-rally-family-separation-20180629-story.html


As thousands of protesters gathered across the country to protest President Donald Trump's immigration policies and the chorus of voices calling to abolish ICE grows, the president is going on the offensive. He's warning of an America overrun by MS-13 — an America that doesn't exist.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/30/17521298/trump-abolish-ice-ms-13




We already have a chaw-spittle poster boy for the cause:

[guido911]

Poster boy for dbaggery...

[heironymouspasparagus]

Poster boy for dbaggery...

Joining BB for late night methane/nitrous sleepovers...??

[guido911]

Joining BB for late night methane/nitrous sleepovers...??

Late night? You have problems telling time? I responded to your stupid thread and even stupider post about 3 hours ago. That's when daylight happens.

[Hoss]

[heironymouspasparagus]

Late night? You have problems telling time? I responded to your stupid thread and even stupider post about 3 hours ago. That's when daylight happens.

No...I wasn't referring to the time of your post.   Just going by the symptoms you are exhibiting that so closely resemble the other.

[erfalf]

I totally think the Democrats should latch on to this position. Let's abolish ICE so it can be replaced with a new acronym-ed department that essentially has the same failings as the one we already have. Vision.

[patric]

I totally think the Democrats should latch on to this position. Let's abolish ICE so it can be replaced with a new acronym-ed department that essentially has the same failings as the one we already have. Vision.

As the ICE investigators themselves noted when recommending it be abolished, we would not be abandoning legal immigration but rather divesting the country of  out-of-control private (Trump) storm troopers.
What if we recycled The United States Customs Service and the Immigration and Naturalization Service?  There might even be some old stationary around.


WASHINGTON — At least 19 Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigators are seeking to dissolve the agency, concerned that the Trump administration's crackdown on illegal migrants has limited their ability to pursue national security threats, child pornography and transnational crime.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/ice-immigration-eliminate-agency.html

[cannon_fodder]

I totally think the Democrats should latch on to this position. Let's abolish ICE so it can be replaced with a new acronym-ed department that essentially has the same failings as the one we already have. Vision.

I'm largely agreeing with Erfalf on this one. 

ICE wasn't a thing before 2003.  I don't think anyone would argue that immigration and customs enforcement has been markedly improved since then, but neither has it markedly gone downhill. Yes, I get that most people do not like the Trump administration's recent policy changes, but that wasn't ICE taking a stand.  It was a policy directive and they should follow it unless and until Ordered not to by a Court (unless it given an obviously and shockingly illegal directive). Changing the name of the agency or putting it in a different box isn't a solution to any problems that people are pointing out. It's basically just a slogan.

But it is also strange to me that some on the right are so offended by the idea, like criticizing the government is un-American.  The next thing you know those crazy leftists are going to be appropriating Native American cultural garb and polluting Boston Harbor by tossing in the product of free enterprise.  Crazy hippies have no idea what it means to be a patriot. 



Also probably a good place to discuss the disparity between the American public's opinions and our government action on these issues:

67% oppose the policy of family separation.

79% think the Dreamers should remain and be able to apply for citizenship.

58% oppose building a border wall.

67% think illegal immigrants current in the country should be allowed to stay and eventually apply for citizenship (Republicans 48%, with another 9% saying they should stay but not be able to apply, and only 36% wanting to deport them all).

17% want legal immigration to the US to be cut back.

Quinnipiac University Poll, June 18, 2018. 
https://poll.qu.edu/images/polling/us/us06182018_uwsf18.pdf/

[patric]

Also probably a good place to discuss the disparity between the American public's opinions and our government action on these issues:

But in the meantime:   https://youtu.be/dNF6sVurAuI

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'm largely agreeing with Erfalf on this one.  

ICE wasn't a thing before 2003.  I don't think anyone would argue that immigration and customs enforcement has been markedly improved since then, but neither has it markedly gone downhill. Yes, I get that most people do not like the Trump administration's recent policy changes, but that wasn't ICE taking a stand.  It was a policy directive and they should follow it unless and until Ordered not to by a Court (unless it given an obviously and shockingly illegal directive). Changing the name of the agency or putting it in a different box isn't a solution to any problems that people are pointing out. It's basically just a slogan.


Also probably a good place to discuss the disparity between the American public's opinions and our government action on these issues:

67% oppose the policy of family separation.

Different aspects were handled by different departments... ICE hasn't helped anything at all - that in itself is good reason to change it.  You are absolutely right - we are spending a boat load of new money on a new department that has made no detectable improvement to the situation.  Go back to the old way and save some bucks.



This is something that is astounding - 33% of the people here are in favor of family separation!  Even though, as practiced in this case, it is being used to break Federal law against detaining children for more than 20 days!   But most disturbing is these "supporters" are mostly the extremist right wing who give voice to all manner of lip-service about;  'law and order'.  "Family Values".  Their "christian values" - not to be confused with Christian Values...  "Compassionate Conservatism" - although they have given up on that lie in recent years.  

[patric]

Welcome to the for-profit prison industry.

Lawmakers have called out Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) for a policy that allegedly forces parents to pay "exorbitant" fees to speak to their separated children over the phone, according to BuzzFeed News.

The group of Democrats argue that ICE policy allows the imposition of steep prices to place phone calls in immigration detention facilities.

http://thehill.com/latino/398353-dem-lawmakers-slam-ice-policy-that-charges-exorbitant-prices-for-parents-to-call

[heironymouspasparagus]

Welcome to the for-profit prison industry.

Lawmakers have called out Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) for a policy that allegedly forces parents to pay "exorbitant" fees to speak to their separated children over the phone, according to BuzzFeed News.

The group of Democrats argue that ICE policy allows the imposition of steep prices to place phone calls in immigration detention facilities.

http://thehill.com/latino/398353-dem-lawmakers-slam-ice-policy-that-charges-exorbitant-prices-for-parents-to-call

Trump keeps talking about what a great businessman he is - gotta make up for all those losses/bankruptcies he has had in the past....

[patric]

ICE plays the victim card:

Portland mayor's office violated the US Constitution by telling police not to interfere with a protest against federal
immigration policies, a letter sent by their union said.

For over five weeks since mid-June people in Portland have been protesting against the US Immigration and Customs
Enforcement (ICE). City authorities refused to get involved, with Mayor Ted Wheeler, who also serves as police
commissioner, saying his officers will not be "sucked into a conflict" and "bailout" ICE, an agency that he believed was
"on the wrong track". At the peak of the protest the immigration agency's local office was shut down. The protest finally
ended on July 25, with the police later clearing the protesters' camp.
https://www.rt.com/usa/434715-ice-portland-police-constitution/

[heironymouspasparagus]

Rephrase the question;

Why should we keep ICE??