Towerview Apartments

[MichaelC]

Nice UT article on Towerview.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/article.asp?id=3182

[carltonplace]

Great story. It really makes me appreciate the power of this forum and its members. I also want to send a letter of appreciation to Councilman Baker for his foresight and for listening.

Won't it be great if this building goes from condemned and derided to a desirable, habitable landmark (I mean roof top terraces how cool is that)?

[MichaelC]

Very cool.  I'm a little surprised that there's news on this so quickly.  Hopefully, the TDA will be able to do something else with the property around Towerview.  Maybe give parts of a it away for residential with street level retail and underground parking.

Put the Hotel on the Bank.

[AVERAGE JOE]

Thanks for posting the article, Mike.

The owner seems pretty sincere in his desire to rehab the property. He is saying all the right things, at least.

I would love to see the city administration get behind this guy in a big way. I've speculated earlier in this thread that it should be possible to build a hotel on the remaining 2/3 or more of the square block. A hotel can be tall, it doesn't have to be deep.

Or as Mike suggested, use the square block where the drive-thru bank is located. I'd argue that the bank block is better for a hotel anyway, since it lies between 1st & 2nd Streets, both of which connect to the IDL directly. If a traveler is coming from the airport, exit I-244 at 1st Street and keep going 8 blocks. Time to check out... go east on 2nd to head to the airport. Not to mention that 1st/2nd is the Williams Tower block and the parking garage block. Line all that stuff up.

In any case, let's see if the city is capable of pursuing a win/win deal. Better to have a new hotel AND a rehabbed Towerview, than a new hotel alone.

[sgrizzle]

Just wanted to point out that Lafortune wanted towerview to be bought out by the city, rumor was for a hotel at least in part built/controlled by John Q Hammons. Where was Lafortune's watch party?

[RecycleMichael]

When I was reading the Urban Tulsa story about the Towerview, I was puzzled about the comments from the head of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited.

The owner is quoted...Aljamal adds that he met with many city representatives including Mayor Bill LaFortune and Jim Norton, president of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited. "Jim Norton told me, 'Don't do nothing in the building. Don't waste your money in the building.'"
 
"It seems," Voss notes, "that there were a number of people, those Luay just mentioned, that didn't want to see the classic or traditional buildings and architecture preserved. There was a desire, maybe, to take out the old buildings and build new ones.

It strikes me as odd that would be the message we would be sending out to owners of buildings downtown.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

When I was reading the Urban Tulsa story about the Towerview, I was puzzled about the comments from the head of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited.

The owner is quoted...Aljamal adds that he met with many city representatives including Mayor Bill LaFortune and Jim Norton, president of Downtown Tulsa Unlimited. "Jim Norton told me, 'Don't do nothing in the building. Don't waste your money in the building.'"
 
"It seems," Voss notes, "that there were a number of people, those Luay just mentioned, that didn't want to see the classic or traditional buildings and architecture preserved. There was a desire, maybe, to take out the old buildings and build new ones.

It strikes me as odd that would be the message we would be sending out to owners of buildings downtown.

Only certain owners. The only two good spots to build a hotel for the new arena are on the BOK drive-through or towerview. Now who was it that bought naming rights to the arena?

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

sorry, the Urban Tulsa article sounds to me like these people are spreading their urban political correctness a little too darned thick.

Always good to know how Elgin, Illinois feels about Tulsa real estate development matters...

[USRufnex]

Ever live in a SRO (sleeping room only), AJ?... I have.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Ever live in a SRO (sleeping room only), AJ?... I have.

I haven't personally, no. Some of my relatives, yes. Not enjoyable from all appearances.

[Heavenly Hospitality]

quote:Originally posted by sportyart

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvet" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MichaelC

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvet" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sportyart

Tulsa is ether going to need to make some grand walkway between the new arena and the blue dome area

I think the Centennial Walk is suppose to address part of this.  That should connect Blue Dome and Brady to the Arena via lighted paths/landscaping/etc.  But the blocks around the Arena site are also expected to be developed.
[/quote]

They SAY its going to work.............we shall see.
[/quote]


As stated in the independent study authorized by the City in conjunction with Vision 2025, a significant number of additional guestrooms are needed in the downtown area to support the potential demand to be created by the convention center.  We believe further that the supporting hotels need to be modern, state-of-the-art in technology, facilities to compete with other metro and secondary markets for these same potential business conventions.  And the reputation of Westin Hotels brings credibility to Tulsa as a major contender.  

We consider the Tulsa Garden Center to be an integral part of the much larger Vision 2025 Initiative to revitalize downtown Tulsa.  Currently, the downtown area does not have the means to support the retail, restaurant and upscale lodging that is critical to creating a vibrant economic community. We also feel that all three of these elements are needed to compliment the success of any new hotel in this market. Major steps have been taken through Vision 2025 with the creation of the new arena and future renovation of the convention center to bring people back to this area, but what is critical to building on this momentum is the structure that will support these facilities and keep people coming back to downtown Tulsa for other reasons than special events or a major convention.  

The Franchise Agreement would be for at least Twenty Years and we intend to be the owners of the property for a minimum of twelve of those years.  We set aside substantial sums every month from operations to cover Reserves for Replacement to keep the hotel in excellent condition.  We also have incentives in our hotel management contract with RIM Hospitality that highly encourages quality by basing a good portion of their compensation on Franchisor Quality Assurance Scores.  In turn they insist on high reserves for replacement which we fully support.  Changing the name brand of the hotel would be extremely expensive given the penalties we would have to pay to the franchisor.  We have no intention of changing the Franchise Affiliation before the twenty year term is up.  Thereafter, we would likely seek renewal if we were still the owners.

We see this proposal as one single integrated project.  

We believe the upscale retail, restaurant and services are vital to the hotel project as these services are not adequate right now.  

Most business travelers now want to be able to walk to a variety of upscale restaurants, shopping and services.  These uses will be more successful if there are residential guests available to frequent the businesses on nights and weekends in addition to the hotel guests and BOK Center attendees.  We also see them vital to Vision 2025 and the economic success of the Events Center and downtown Tulsa as a desirable destination.  

If one portion of the project lags the rest, it could have a detrimental affect to the success of the project.  We will be very aggressively pre-leasing the retail and residential portions of this project while the hotel is being built.  The hotel will have the longest construction period.  We would like to have the hotel open as closely after the BOK Events Center and Convention Center Renovation/Expansion are completed.  We believe it is critical to the economic success of both.  

We see this as a win-win scenario for the developer and the City and we are in hopes of a close partnership with the City in making Vision 2025 a smashing success.

12. Is there anything you would like to add or clarify pertaining to the conditions set out by Westin Hotels on page 4 of your proposal? Do you believe that other hotel companies would request the same conditions?

We just recently answered a media question regarding same:  

From the proposal, I noticed there were six conditions that Starwood put in place -- if the city is unable to meet these requirements, will it break any deals?  Yes.  Unless you are referring to the "Headquarters Hotel" issue.  We just believe we will become the Headquarters Hotel but we are not requiring any special designation by the city.

Why is the train whistle a condition? What issues arise from the whistle?  When people stay at a hotel they want peace and quiet, especially at night.  Hotel guests don't want the sound of a train whistle blowing close by.

Why does Starwood want the bus station moved? What type of impact can the bus station have on the development?  Most guests do not feel "safe" near a bus station, especially our female guests.  Safety is a key consideration for where guest want to stay. Safety is a number one issue when it comes to walk ability of a downtown.

Is there concern that the YMCA is located a few blocks south at Sixth and Denver?  Yes.  It goes to the safety issue and attractive environment issue necessary for an upscale hotel to succeed. Creative options for how to support YMCA membership and improve downtown's attraction are necessary to move Tulsa forward.

Who should be responsible for the renovation or demolition of the Wright and Coney Island buildings? Why is this an issue for you and Starwood?  An attractive environment is necessary for an upscale hotel to succeed.  The main issue is making the surrounding area attractive.  We are very open to how this can be accomplished including an attractive re-facing of the Wright building.

And what would you consider a creative way for the city to help you over come the feasibility gap? What type of an incentive would you like to see?  We are very open in regards to how this can be accomplished.  We are looking for a win-win scenario for everyone involved and are committed to seeing Tulsa reach her full potential.

Any of the premium hotel franchisors, quality management companies and knowledgeable development companies would have the same requirements.  Trains and Bus Stations are always an issue for Upscale, Upper Upscale and Luxury Franchise Concepts as is an attractive and safe environment.


If Tulsa wants an upscale hotel downtown, you have to meet the franchisor requirements.  Put yourself in the place of any guest staying in an upscale hotel.  Do you want to look out your room or walk by boarded up buildings?  Deteriorating Buildings?  Listen to Train Noise while your trying to sleep or rest?

Both the GeoData/GeoTrends property and the Towerview property have to be acquired and demolished in order for us to meet franchisor requirements regarding the attractiveness of adjacent properties.  This is the same requirement any premium franchise brand is going to require whether it is Starwood, Marriott, Hilton, Kimpton, etc.

We have selected Westin Hotel as Starwood is under represented in the Tulsa Metropolitan area.  This will allow for better success from the Reservation System and Customer Loyalty program as Marriott, Hilton and IHG already have significant number of hotels and rooms in the subject market.  This is because we will not be sharing the Reservation System and Customer Loyalty Program with numerous other hotels.  Westin is also the best performing brand of the Upper Upscale Brands segement.  It is number one in customer satisfaction and obtains higher ADR and Occupancy nationwide than Marriott (Marriott or Renaissance), Hilton (Hilton or Embassy Suites) or IHG Upscale (Crowne Plaza, Holiday Inn or Holiday Inn Select) or Upper Upscale segments.

Upper Upscale is the highest hotel segment that the Tulsa Metro Market will support given its current market price points.

We are not requiring that the City of Tulsa acquire any additional property, however, at the same time, it is a condition of our proposal that we obtain the Towerview property for our development.  We will have to get it back under contract and be able to close on it.  It is also a condition that we obtain the alley located on the site.  This we assumed the City would accomplish this with the parcel being offered if the alley was not already being offered.

One of the non-economic parts of developing the hotel portion of this project is the prices for the land, especially the Towerview (most overpriced, especially for raw land) and the GeoData/GeoTrends Property (still overpriced for raw land - reflects value of buildings to Geo).  This can easily be determined by computing the price per square foot for the City of Tulsa land versus these smaller parcels.  This is one significant area of economic assistance needed by Developer to make this project viable.

The reason we selected this block over the adjacent Bank of Oklahoma block is two fold.  First, the blight on the subject block (Towerview Apartments and GeoData/GeoTrends buildings) would have to be eliminated if any premium hotel franchise was going to be located near the arena.  Second, the Bank of Oklahoma site is too close to the rail line.

To be quite frank, we really don't see the adequate success of the Arena without eliminating the blight of the Towerview Apartment at a bare minimum.  To have the arena Icon a stone's throw from the absolute opposite.  Just having that building in clear view of the arena will scare many people from coming or returning.  People walking to the Parking Garage diagonally adjacent to the GeoTrends Buildings and Towerview Apartments after an event will pass uncomfortably close to these buildings.  We believe the City must know the Towerview Apartments must go before the opening of the BOK Events Center, our project happening or NOT.  It's the only way outsiders will come back.

Anyone who hasn't read the entire Hotel Study for the Tulsa Convention and Visitors Bureau needs to in order to make any intelligent comments or decisions about this project.  

Secondly, have that same independent company verify that the conditions being sought is what any upscale franchisor will require in order to ensure the hotel will be successful and not be the "Dog" in the system.  Franchisor's can't afford dogs in their system because people won't consistently stay at their hotels if they can't depend upon a certain standard for the hotel AND it's surroundings.

[PonderInc]

This morning's paper has an editorial by Ken Neal supporting the use of eminent domain to acquire and demolish the Towerview Apts.  Whether or not this may be the best decision, I am really tired of the TW continuing to use the following picture whenever they discuss the Towerview issue:


Strange that they don't want to show the FRONT of the building (which, until an article by the TW caused it to be condemned, was not a bad looking building).  If they're going to show only the backside of the building when debating its future, perhaps they should also show a picture of Ken Neal's naked butt (instead of his head shot) to accompany the editorial.  It may not be his best angle, but at least it would be consistant.  (No offense to Mr. Neal...just pointing out the TW's bias in its choice of photography.)

[TheArtist]

If someone was wanting to tear down this building for just another parking lot, I would not like it. Why? Because if we keep tearing down buildings in downtown it will loose its feel of being a downtown.

The other reason I do not like for buildings to be torn down is if they have some architectural or historic significance. The Towerview IMO has neither.

Its interior is gutted, and the exterior is so basic and simple that it could be easily reconstructed today. There are many examples of buildings going up today that are of equal or better design and quality using similar materials. The new homes by Harwelden, new business buildings by 91st and Yale, developments by Centennial Park, etc.  There is no feel, character, quality or element that could not be easily bettered by a another building in its place.

Since developers are wanting to add to downtown, and what I have seen so far by HH, put in more density and equal if not better design elements, I see no reason to save this particular building.

[RecycleMichael]

When was the last time the city used eminent domain for private development?  It has been used for public uses like roads and public buildings and has been threatedned to be used, but settled later without it's use.

I can't remember the last time the government took land from one private group or individual just to give it to some other private group or individual.

Anybody know?

[USRufnex]

There's an amazing amount of arrogance shown on the last post by Heavenly Hospitality.  

Here's a thought... if Heavenly Hospitality wants the bus station moved... how 'bout THEY pay for it?... and not rely on subsidies from the working folks of Tulsa for an "Upscale, Upper Upscale and Luxury Franchise Concept" most Tulsans wouldn't even be welcome in...

quote:Trains and Bus Stations are always an issue for Upscale, Upper Upscale and Luxury Franchise Concepts as is an attractive and safe environment.

If Tulsa wants an upscale hotel downtown, you have to meet the franchisor requirements. Put yourself in the place of any guest staying in an upscale hotel.

Try putting YOURSELF in the shoes of the Tulsa taxpayer who shouldn't be asked to subsidize your upper-uppity-upscale folly...

There are multiple luxury hotels in Chicago that are within blocks of train stations and bus terminals... and even the YMCA...

Maybe Heavenly Hospitality is more interested in making downtown Tulsa into a clone of Owasso...