Inhofe: Global Warming Ppl, "The Third Reich"

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Yada yada yada papaspot, attack me all you want

'Scuse me, pot?

quote:but at least I'm not dodging the debate, by declaring it's over cause someone else told you it was.  

Neither am I. What's your point? Oh, wait! Spin! That's right. I said it's all over because you say that I said it's all over.

quote:
Yes, it's been covered by MANY scientists and there is no consensus despite what you say.  Saying it louder or attacking me isn't helping your point.

No one's attacking you, Skippy. I just pointed out the FACT that you're doing more spinning than anything else--just like you're doing NOW.

quote:
BTW thanks for editing to add that last line, cause it was getting nasty and personal and not your typical attitude.  Goes to show this is a charged debate at least.

I didn't add the last line to cool things down. I added the last line because I believe it. You're NOT stupid. In fact, I consider you to to be pretty sharp. That's the point I was making. You DIDN'T misunderstand what I said, you were just trying to spin it.

[TheArtist]

Couple of todays articles from one of my daily science website reads.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060727180326.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060727180833.htm

[iplaw]

Here is another article for today.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyid=2006-07-31T185105Z_01_N31362626_RTRUKOC_0_US-BUSH-HURRICANES.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Damn NOAA!

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Here is another article for today.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyid=2006-07-31T185105Z_01_N31362626_RTRUKOC_0_US-BUSH-HURRICANES.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Damn NOAA!

Did you read your link? All it said was that there wasn't a consensus as to whether global warming was causing more powerful hurricanes. I haven't seen anyone say in this thread that it's a foregone conclusion that global warming is causing more powerful hurricanes.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:
Tiny air bubbles trapped in ice give a history of the earth's atmosphere kind of like tree rings give a history of weather. The current level of greenhouse gasses is 27% higher than the highest point in the last 650,000 years. That kinda suggests that a condition or conditions exist now that have never existed before (or at least not for the past 0.65 million years). Now, what could that be?

That is assuming that the current scientific theories and procedures are correct and can accurately reflect what the air bubbles in the ice mean.  Obviously, internal combustion engines and other sources that burn hydrocarbon fuels emit CO, CO2 and other gasses, but how can we be for certain this is causing global warming and it's not just another warming cycle in the life-cycle of the planet.

This is a whole lot of worry about nothing right now.  The more imminent threat to us at the moment are the muslim extremists bent on destroying our way of life as we know it.

Concentrations of CO2 in an air sample is not exactly unproven science. And it's been scientifically accepted for centuries that the further you drill down into the polar ice, the farther back you're looking. No, it's not "proven" to anyone that's determined to not believe it. I suppose that we could just ignore it and go on with business as usual until it's too late to reverse it.

As far as Muslim extremists go, I think that's in another thread somewhere.

Considering that we've only been exploring the polar areas of the earth for about a century, not centuries, that pretty well shoots your statement down about drilling into polar ice for centuries.

Oh my gosh!! I have exaggerated! You have completely refuted my point based on an exaggeration for effect!!

The whole global warming argument is an exaggeration of scientific data

quote:
Are you aware that you can create CO2 with acid and carbonate minerals which are commonly found in rocks and water?

No! Seriously? Are you aware that there are a few major differences between rocks and ice?

quote:
Are you aware that hydrochloric acid is a by-product of sodium choride (salt), which is abundant in sea water?  Through various heating and cooling cycles over time, it is possible for the sea to create it's own CO2, as well as the normal plant life-cycle.

So would you care to offer a theory of the mechanism of how this might have happened?

As far as the plant life-cycle, we're not talking about the rain forest here. We're talking about the polar cap. Plants are kinda sparse in that part of the world and a complete lack of fossil evidence suggests that it's been pretty devoid of plants for some time. (Like the last 650,000 years or so.)

Ahhh, yes, there aren't very many CO2-producing vehicles in the polar regions either.  You are talking about "global" warming aren't you?  What part of the poles are not included in the globe, or did I flunk that part of geography?  Gasses have always and will always be dispersed about the globe.

quote:
Collecting data from polar ice is based on theory.  

Pretty much like all the REST of science, wouldn't you say?

quote:
It is easy to manipulate data to reflect what ever point a scientist wishes to prove.  A scientist who sets out to prove there is global warming will eventually be able to prove it.  A scientist who sets out to disprove global warming will eventually be able to dis-prove it.

Okay, as a lawyer and an engineer, I expected iplaw to be very concise and exact in what he said yet he clarified that by "global warming" he didn't mean global warming but meant human induced warming. Is that what you mean? If you're going to talk with credibility about science, it's helpful if you say exactly what you mean so that there's no ambiguity. If you really ARE saying that we are not in a state of global warming, then I won't waste any more time arguing with you.

quote:
If there had been an average rise in temperature over the last century of say, 10 degrees, then sure, I'd be more worried about it.  In reality, what are we talking about, one degree in the last century?

If we had had a ten degree rise in the average global temperature, even YOU would not be arguing that the science isn't there.

I agree with IPLAW's explaination of the diffusion of the gasses.  Pressure from new layers of ice will eventually become heavy enough to further compact older ice, therefore pushing out gasses and air- this also is true of about every other substance known to man- put enough pressure on it and eventually there will be no room for gasses, so IMO, the "core mining" in the polar regions really tells us nothing reliable about the air quality 650,000 years ago.

Okay, we aren't in a state of global warming...let's see if that gets you to calm down.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


Okay, we aren't in a state of global warming...let's see if that gets you to calm down.

ROFL!! YOU seem to be the one doing all the yelling. Why are you telling ME to calm down?

You can claim all you want to that we aren't in a state of global warming. That doesn't change the facts. Show me a single credible scientist that says that we aren't in a state of global warming. You don't appear to know much about science, though.

[Chicken Little]

Pat Robertson bails on Inhofe

From American Family Association:

quote: ...Televangelist Pat Robertson says he hasn't been a believer in global warming in the past, but this summer's record-breaking heat is, quote: "making a convert out of me." On his 700 Club broadcast, Robertson said, "It is getting hotter, and the icecaps are melting and there is a buildup of carbon dioxide in the air." Switching sides on an issue that divides evangelical Christians, Robertson said, "We really need to address the burning of fossil fuels." The religious broadcaster told viewers, "If we are contributing to the destruction of this planet, we need to do something about it."

[more]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

It's a sin

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

It's a sin

 Wow!  Can you imagine the look of shock on the peoples faces if they heard a sermon like that at some of these suburban mega churches here? The parking lots are virtually a sea of sin.  Imagine the irony of walking up to your huge SUV or Hummer with the Jesus sticker on it after hearing that.  They would likely vote to get rid of the pastor lol.

[Chicken Little]

Actually, there has been a fairly solid "Green" evangelical movement going for quite a while, here's a NY Times article from last February:

Evangelical Leaders Join Global Warming Initiative

Robertson's johnny-come-lately endorsement of the movement could be a real tipping point.  Its ironic that it would take a particular heat wave, i.e. something that is virtually impossible to scientifically link to global warming, to get him to weigh in.  On one level, it shows how unimportant science (as opposed to "truthiness") is to certain people.

But I welcome the endorsement.  I always considered him an evangelical Dispensationalist...an "end is near" type.

Many of that vein believe in global warming, but think that it is hastening the apocolypse and it is therefore unproductive and even un-christian, to interfere.  Its extremely comforting to hear somebody from that camp, for whatever reason, say that we shouldn't be, "...contributing to the destruction of the planet".

[aoxamaxoa]

Sometimes you can be so far to the right you come out on the left.....

Strange. Who tricked these extremists into a theatre to see Al Gore's movie?

[LilMikey]

1.  The sun is hotter.  Period.  This fact cannot be denied.  The sun is going through a lengthy period of increased activity that causes it to radiate more heat into space.  Is it really that hard to believe that a hotter sun would lead to a hotter earth?

2.  Our polar ice caps are melting?  Sure looks like it. But .. the polar ice caps on Mars are melting also.  So, are we to believe that this is caused by man on the Earth but by the hotter sun on Mars?

3.  And while we're talking about ice caps melting, it's worth noting that the ice pack in the heart of Antarctica is actually getting thicker!

4.  Scientific data clearly shows that the Earth has undergone warming and cooling cycles for millions of years.  Why, all of a sudden, does a warming cycle just have to be caused by the actions of man?


5.  Scientists who work on government grants are more inclined to blame global warming on the actions of man than are scientists who do not depend on continued government (political) funding.


6.  And just how much warmer has our atmosphere become in the last 100 years?  One degree.  That's it.  Just one degree.

7.  Many of the people who are so involved in promoting the man-made global warming theme are people who are also involved in anti-capitalist movements.  So, what is their true goal?  Do they want to solve the global warming problem, or do they want to cripple the capitalist systems they so hate?

8.  The U.S. Senate snubbed the Kyoto treaty by a vote of 99-0.  This was during the Clinton years!  What did these 99 senators know about the Kyoto Accords that we don't know?

9.  Speaking of the Kyoto accords, they would severely impact the U.S. economy, but would leave China absolutely alone!  China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world.  Since a huge number of Kyoto proponents can also be called anti-American, could this cause you to wonder what the true goal of Kyoto is?
And just how many years ago was it that these very same scientists were warming us about the earth getting cooler?

[RecycleMichael]

It is fascinating that so many are becoming environmentalists. It brings worth to my lifetime career of propaganda.

The "Green" movement has been blitzed in the last 12 months with interest. Many envangelical groups have been calling my office, architects and builders are creating all kinds of demand for green products, even mainstream media is buying in. Newsweek Magazine did a full cover story two weeks and Fortune magazine cover story this week on a company embracing the sustainable movement.

I am going to present at the September 15th Oklahoma Sustainability Conference held at the Tulsa Convention Center on this topic.

My speech is titled "Green...it's the new Red, White and Blue".

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by LilMikey

1.  The sun is hotter.  Period.  This fact cannot be denied.  The sun is going through a lengthy period of increased activity that causes it to radiate more heat into space.  Is it really that hard to believe that a hotter sun would lead to a hotter earth?

2.  Our polar ice caps are melting?  Sure looks like it. But .. the polar ice caps on Mars are melting also.  So, are we to believe that this is caused by man on the Earth but by the hotter sun on Mars?

3.  And while we're talking about ice caps melting, it's worth noting that the ice pack in the heart of Antarctica is actually getting thicker!

4.  Scientific data clearly shows that the Earth has undergone warming and cooling cycles for millions of years.  Why, all of a sudden, does a warming cycle just have to be caused by the actions of man?


5.  Scientists who work on government grants are more inclined to blame global warming on the actions of man than are scientists who do not depend on continued government (political) funding.


6.  And just how much warmer has our atmosphere become in the last 100 years?  One degree.  That's it.  Just one degree.

7.  Many of the people who are so involved in promoting the man-made global warming theme are people who are also involved in anti-capitalist movements.  So, what is their true goal?  Do they want to solve the global warming problem, or do they want to cripple the capitalist systems they so hate?

8.  The U.S. Senate snubbed the Kyoto treaty by a vote of 99-0.  This was during the Clinton years!  What did these 99 senators know about the Kyoto Accords that we don't know?

9.  Speaking of the Kyoto accords, they would severely impact the U.S. economy, but would leave China absolutely alone!  China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world.  Since a huge number of Kyoto proponents can also be called anti-American, could this cause you to wonder what the true goal of Kyoto is?
And just how many years ago was it that these very same scientists were warming us about the earth getting cooler?

1. Source?

2. Source?

3. Source?

4. Source?

5. Source?

etc...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by LilMikey

1.  The sun is hotter.  Period.  This fact cannot be denied.  The sun is going through a lengthy period of increased activity that causes it to radiate more heat into space.  Is it really that hard to believe that a hotter sun would lead to a hotter earth?

2.  Our polar ice caps are melting?  Sure looks like it. But .. the polar ice caps on Mars are melting also.  So, are we to believe that this is caused by man on the Earth but by the hotter sun on Mars?

3.  And while we're talking about ice caps melting, it's worth noting that the ice pack in the heart of Antarctica is actually getting thicker!

4.  Scientific data clearly shows that the Earth has undergone warming and cooling cycles for millions of years.  Why, all of a sudden, does a warming cycle just have to be caused by the actions of man?


5.  Scientists who work on government grants are more inclined to blame global warming on the actions of man than are scientists who do not depend on continued government (political) funding.


6.  And just how much warmer has our atmosphere become in the last 100 years?  One degree.  That's it.  Just one degree.

7.  Many of the people who are so involved in promoting the man-made global warming theme are people who are also involved in anti-capitalist movements.  So, what is their true goal?  Do they want to solve the global warming problem, or do they want to cripple the capitalist systems they so hate?

8.  The U.S. Senate snubbed the Kyoto treaty by a vote of 99-0.  This was during the Clinton years!  What did these 99 senators know about the Kyoto Accords that we don't know?

9.  Speaking of the Kyoto accords, they would severely impact the U.S. economy, but would leave China absolutely alone!  China has one of the fastest growing economies in the world.  Since a huge number of Kyoto proponents can also be called anti-American, could this cause you to wonder what the true goal of Kyoto is?
And just how many years ago was it that these very same scientists were warming us about the earth getting cooler?

 Goodness, what a bevy of wrong info you must have run into.  Where to start...

 Reply to 1.
 Yes the sun has fluctuations that cause more or less radiation to reach the earth.  These obvious factors have been added to researchers equations when looking at global warming and the extent of possible human causes.
  http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/19990408/
Dr David Viner, the senior research scientist at the University of East Anglia's climatic research unit, said the research showed that the sun did have an effect on global warming.

He added, however, that the study also showed that over the past 20 years the number of sunspots had remained roughly constant, while the Earth's temperature had continued to increase.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/GlobalWarming/warming2.html

 For #2.

Has some info about the "Mars thing".http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/10/global-warming-on-mars/

 For #3.

It was thought that the ice pack in Antarctica could be getting thicker.  Just read a study a week or so ago that said to the scientists suprise this wasnt so.  One notion for why some places should be getting more snow is that as the earth gets warmer there is more moisture in the atmosphere to fall as snow.  As you may know its veeery cold in some places, it only needs to be at freezing for it to snow. Some places are waaay below freezing so even if they get warmer they can still be below freezing but possibly have more moisture in the air to freeze, thus more snow even though its warmer.  So you may even see more snow in parts of the US during winter, as long as its still cold enough to freeze as snow. Say if its normally 27 F but instead its 28 F, its still cold enough to snow.  

This is not the most recent article I was talking about but it works lol.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/03/060317112333.htm

For #4.  

 Yes the earth does go through cycles of temperature change. And no it doesnt have to be because of human activity. Mt Pinatubo eruption caused global temperatures to drop for a couple years.  We understood why, there was a direct correlation etc.  We also know what greenhouse gases do, its easy math and chemistry. And we can keep trying to factor in other causes of natural temperature changes to find out the balance, to add or subtract each factors effect and see just how much an effect greenhouse gasses are having in the aggregate.  We also note that the temperatures seem to be changing/rising far quicker than appears to be usual in any historic records or scientific data we can find.  So they are looking for all the possible causes, and perhaps if it has actually happened before so quickly to try and determine just how much an impact we are having.  


 One thing to also note, even though the effect of temperature change by man may be minor
so far.  What worries people most is whats going to happen if current trends continue for the next 50 or 100 years.  Also, when balancing out the possible variations of, sun, pollution, deforestation, clouds, volcanoes, etc. the effects that those things have on the environment are often smaller than the effects that our measurable and most likely increased, output of CO2 and other greenhouse gases can have over the next generation.  

 Say the sun is getting warmer, we can measure it but its still not accounting for what temperature changes are occuring.  We know that greenhouse gasses make the earth warmer, they cant not, its what they do lol. And even if it is getting warmer because of the sun, why keep adding wood to the fire so to speak? Wouldnt that be all the more reason to lessen the known impact of manmade greenhouse gasses?

 I could keep going, but I want to get out and enjoy my evening lol. Its Friday!!!! woo hooo[8D]