Downtown NEEDS a plaza

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

Why is it that Tulsa seems to have such problems maintaining fountains?  The fountain at 18th & Boulder now contains plants; the main mall fountain of course is gone (and the small one replacing it is apparently a car magnet); I cannot remember the last time the fountain by the library had water in it; Swan Lake is still struggling to replace theirs.

I've wondered if I was the only one who had noticed that.  To add to the list, I think there is/was a large fountain in the middle of the city hall plaza/concrete slab that hasn't had water in it for ten years or more.  The fountains in the below-surface area outside of First Place Tower are off a good deal and even when they are on, they don't look so hot because they are clogged up with lime deposits.  Even the water features at Williams Center Green seem to be off or dry fairly often.  Does the little fountain at Cathedral Square work?

They also turned the fountain beside the SPirit Bank building at 18th and Boston into a planter.

Must be freeze/thaw thing.  I thought fountains were fairly simple in their operation.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I remember at OSU, every winter they'd shut the library fountain down, drain it, etc., so it was ugly and dry about half the year.

[carltonplace]

At least the river fountain still works twice a day.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.

They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.

I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?

Just drove by the Cathedral Square fountain and confirmed what I had thought.  I couldn't tell from the street whether there is water in it, but it definitely was not operating.

That's disappointing. Maybe they don't run it during the day to conserve water? Who knows...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.

They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.

I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?

 I can only guess its that they dont put aside money for it.  KC is the City of Fountains so cant be the freeze-thaw cycle.  Either that or they are just too danged lazy and dont care.

 I have also heard that they dont fund the proper care and number of cleanings for the bronzes either.  The city needs to have a budget set aside for its art and fountains to be cared for properly.  Perhaps even an endowment started to pay for someone to do nothing but care for those things like Philbrook now has to pay for permanent garden staff.  You raise the money once and dont have to worry about it being a tax or funding it every year.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Ironically enough, DTU has a plan that was never realized called "cathedral square" that involved housing, retail, and greenspaces in the same place you're talking about.

I dont understand these "plans" that we have laying around?  Do they have some incentives to make this plan happen?  Was there some zoning put in place so that any development that went in the area had to follow this plans guidelines? Were ANY steps taken to promote this plan coming into being?
 I often wonder about just how many plans this city, and its citizens, have paid for and spent time on, then put on a shelf to gather dust untill forgotten about or decided that new plans are now needed? Only to have the new plan have no teeth as well, then never happen, on and on. River Plans, Eastland Plans, Pearl District Plan,etc. etc.  Are they all just paper tigers?    

 I would really like to see this Cathedral Square Plan.  Any ideas on how and where to go to find out about it?

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Ironically enough, DTU has a plan that was never realized called "cathedral square" that involved housing, retail, and greenspaces in the same place you're talking about.

I dont understand these "plans" that we have laying around?  Do they have some incentives to make this plan happen?  Was there some zoning put in place so that any development that went in the area had to follow this plans guidelines? Were ANY steps taken to promote this plan coming into being?
 I often wonder about just how many plans this city, and its citizens, have paid for and spent time on, then put on a shelf to gather dust untill forgotten about or decided that new plans are now needed? Only to have the new plan have no teeth as well, then never happen, on and on. River Plans, Eastland Plans, Pearl District Plan,etc. etc.  Are they all just paper tigers?    

 I would really like to see this Cathedral Square Plan.  Any ideas on how and where to go to find out about it?

It's in an old DTU booklet I have. I'll dig around and see if I can find it. The original boston avenue plan is in it too.

[carltonplace]

Speaking of DTU, do they ever update their website? The development page still has a reference to DESCO in the East Village. There is no mention of Mayo Place, the new condos or any of the changes that have occurred in the last year.

[Kenosha]

You don't have to have a fountain to have an interesting plaza.  Sometimes the topography of a place can be just as interesting:

[AVERAGE JOE]

That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]

[Kiah]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]

Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc.  And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.

The Baby Jesus would enjoy it.  Really.

Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]

Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc.  And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.

The Baby Jesus would enjoy it.  Really.

Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square

It is used a lot because of the incredible job of programming they do, but it is still uglier than homemade soup. It ain't no Bryant Park.

[Kiah]

Mmmmm.  Homemade soup . . . .



I'd say location is as big a factor as programming, but I agree.  They have been known to grow a tree or two in Oregon.  Maybe they should have put a little of that experience to use.

[OurTulsa]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Kiah

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

That ugly, empty brick plaza, all bland hardscape with an underground bunker storefront, makes Jesus weep... [V]

Except that it (Portland's Pioneer Square) almost always has actual people in it, along with music, movies, public art, performers, etc.  And it's surrounded by offices and retail, and is easily accessed by transit.

The Baby Jesus would enjoy it.  Really.

Project for Public Spaces' Review of Pioneer Square

It is used a lot because of the incredible job of programming they do, but it is still uglier than homemade soup. It ain't no Bryant Park.

Bryant Park is a great public space and venue however at one point not too long ago it was actually a terrible public space, actually dangerous!  Thanks to the Bryant Park Association, the City, and...programming that Park has once again become a great public space.  

Now, Copley Square in Boston, that's a great public space!!  I'll try and figure out how to post pictures soon.

[Kenosha]

UUUUGGGH!  AJ, you're killing me.

To much hardscape? No Trees downtown?  Make up your mind, man!

Regardless of your opinion of the aesthetics of Pioneer Square, I used it as an example because it is one of the most successful parking lot reclaimations I know of.

There is great programming there, no doubt.  But that is only a fraction of the reason it is successful.  Go there at lunch, or anytime during a non-rainy day, and you will find the plaza packed with people, programming or not.  Why?  Because it is located in a convienient place for people who are working, shopping, or visiting, for one.  Because there are tons of places to sit.  Because it is near offices, shopping, and transit.

Whether or not there are trees, a fountain, or grass, if you have those things in place, that is what makes a successful public space.

Frankly, while placing a plaza in front of Holy Family is very euro, and would be much more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than what is there now, who would go there?

The park blocks, I think are a great example of what could be done on a smaller scale here. The West Park Blocks are essentially the campus green for Portland State University.  If TCC were really interested in creating an urban "college" campus, they'd parse out the center of the blocks going south towards Boston Ave. Methodist Church for a "campus green" and build campus buildings on either side of the green.

[OurTulsa]

Here are a few photos I found quickly to illustrate the potential of a 'Cathederal Square'.  These are of Copley Place in Boston.  The Square is a nice mix of hard and soft scape.  The pathways through and around the park are logical/practical travelways that accommodate pedestrian passage however the square provides many interesting nooks or spaces in which to divert.  Trees shelter pedestrians and lunchtimers sitting or passing along the fringes.  The trees also help define the boundary's space.  

This park is located in between the Back Bay neighborhood and the SouthEnd.  It is bound by significant regional streets.  There are major office buildings along the fringes as well as significant regional shopping streets and centers.  Two major T lines stop here as well as an Amtrak and Commuter Rail line.  This 'Square' is literally the hub for this particular portion of Boston.  The Square's boundaries contain streets but are also lined with wide sidewalks and mid-rise buildings accommodating a good variety of retail and service on the ground floor and offices/residence on top.  There is also a great hotel on the squares southwest corner.  
Second to the Common this square is the venue for significant gatherings.  Therer is a local market on the southwest corner of the square (food, crafts...) concerts, protests, public speeches, and host to celebrations (2004 Red Soxs), oh, and it is the host for the finish line to this little marathon they run there every spring.

With all that said, a 'Cathederal Square' in Tulsa could be shaped similarly.  Imagine 'Holy Family' in place of Trinity and instead of the Hancock Tower you've got the white 'Vintage' tower.  TCC takes the place of the Boston Public Library (on the parks western boundary - couldn't find a good photo).  

Incorporate the park blocks idea Kiah and Kenosha are describing and I think you have the making of a world class public space.