Downtown NEEDS a plaza

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

UUUUGGGH!  AJ, you're killing me.

To much hardscape? No Trees downtown?  Make up your mind, man!

Actually, a public plaza like Pioneer Square is the PERFECT place for trees in an urban, downtown environment. There's actually room for them and they provide shade in a place where you want people to gather and linger.

But there's no arguing that Pioneer Square is highly successful. It has three great things going for it -- location, programming and access to transit (another function of location, I suppose). It is a great success story.

[TheArtist]

There are many components that can make a place a desirable one to visit.  As an artist I can walk in a room or space and tell you what is needed to make it feel and look a certain way.  What works for one space will most likely not work in another.  Our potential square has incredible possibilities, and could be so much better than most of the ones that I have visited. We are actually very fortunate, if only we are wise enough to take advantage of that fortune.

 Why would anyone visit this square?  For one the view would be wonderful.  Many of the spaces like in Rome or Paris that people gravitate too have an open space with a great view.  Think of the steps at the top of the hill by the Sacre Coure and its view of paris. A large space needs a view.  A smaller space like many in our downtown would have different concerns and aesthetic decisions to make it attractive.

What you want is a space such that even when nobody is there, you are drawn to it, to visit and relax, purely because of its beauty and feel.  

In addition to a view the layout and harmony of the space and the items within it are important.  Trees, slopes, benches or places to sit, water feature, materials, pattern, sculpture, lighting,and more all need to be balanced and of the proper scale and positioning to feel inviting and beautiful. Not only to each other but to the buildings around them. The trendy way of saying this would be "paying attention to its Feng Shui".

 The park space in front of the BOK building is a complete disaster, horrible, horrible.  It doesnt invite you in and has an uncomfortable, cold, desolate feeling to it, even though its packed with crap and poorly placed trees etc.  A good example would be the trails by the azaleas at Woodward Park.  Each high place and low place, each stopping point, bench, bridge etc. offers you a beautiful and unique vignette or view.  Whoever designed that did an excellent job.

Likewise a plaza or park if designed well can be a place of discovery and wonder.  It can set you at ease, cause your mind to relax and dream, taking you away from the every day.

 I could walk into any living room and, simply by moving things around a bit and adding or taking away a few items, completely change the way it feels for the people who live in it. I guarantee you that adding a plaza in front of that church, if done correctly, would completely change the feel of our downtown, immensely. It would be more beneficial to bringing life back to our downtown than any other project I could think of. Just needs a good artists touch, not an architect and a bunch of beurocrats lol.

[SoonerRiceGrad]

Downtown HAS a plaza (granted not much of one).

Plus there's the trailhead park for the Centennial Walk. I believe it's going to be called something like Gusher Park?

Yes and it will even have a real gusher of a fountain.

[PonderInc]

Well, at least we have lots of examples of what not to do:



We absolutely must learn from our previous mistakes.  

#1: Any public space must be integrated into its surroundings.  It must have more than a pretty view.  It absolutely must be surrounded by things that naturally draw people to the area: funky shops, cafes, coffeeshops, gelaterias, etc.  And then, the public space must be inviting enough that people naturally flow into the space.

#2: The public space must be great for multi-tasking: hanging out, festivals, farmers markets, performances, playing frisbee, whatever!  There should be multiple ways to use the space.  My personal bias:  I think that any public space downtown MUST include an attractive area that can easily double as a stage...No need to pay to erect temporary stages whenever someone wants to have an event downtown...the stage (designed to be functional, attractive and with good accoustics in mind) would be an integral feature of the space...always present and ready for an impromptu performance.

#3: Anyone involved in any aspect of planning public spaces should check out the Project for Public Spaces website (http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/).  What do they say about public plazas?  "Design alone does not make places succeed.  Great parks, plazas and squares have a choice of things to do.  Public spaces work when people come first."

If you're interested in public plazas, check out:10 Principles for Creating Successful Public Squares.  If you don't look at anything else on their website, read this one page for a clear, concise summary of what makes public plazas work.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Well, at least we have lots of examples of what not to do:



We absolutely must learn from our previous mistakes.  

#1: Any public space must be integrated into its surroundings.  It must have more than a pretty view.  It absolutely must be surrounded by things that naturally draw people to the area: funky shops, cafes, coffeeshops, gelaterias, etc.  And then, the public space must be inviting enough that people naturally flow into the space.

#2: The public space must be great for multi-tasking: hanging out, festivals, farmers markets, performances, playing frisbee, whatever!  There should be multiple ways to use the space.  My personal bias:  I think that any public space downtown MUST include an attractive area that can easily double as a stage...No need to pay to erect temporary stages whenever someone wants to have an event downtown...the stage (designed to be functional, attractive and with good accoustics in mind) would be an integral feature of the space...always present and ready for an impromptu performance.

#3: Anyone involved in any aspect of planning public spaces should check out the Project for Public Spaces website (http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/).  What do they say about public plazas?  "Design alone does not make places succeed.  Great parks, plazas and squares have a choice of things to do.  Public spaces work when people come first."

If you're interested in public plazas, check out:10 Principles for Creating Successful Public Squares.  If you don't look at anything else on their website, read this one page for a clear, concise summary of what makes public plazas work.

 Too many "musts", sounds pushy and absolutist and can cause the reader to become defensive, even if they agree with what is being said.

[cannon_fodder]

Unfortunately, most of the examples given either grew with the city (New Orleans, Boston), already had people downtown when the project started, developers saw the need for more retail and filled it in conjucture with the city, or was a result of a prolonged plan.  

Tulsa has leveled any plaza areas long ago, has no people downtown, discourages retail downtown by its growth aptterns, and appears unwilling or unable to have a long term plan.  The death blow appears to be massive growth south.  With the vast majority of the population passing 2 malls and Utica Square to get downtown... why go there to shop?  Until there is an answer to that (like, "I live there so its convienient") it isnt likely that retail will open downtown.  I wouldnt open downtown as much as I would like to.

[PonderInc]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist


 Too many "musts", sounds pushy and absolutist and can cause the reader to become defensive, even if they agree with what is being said.

Good point.  I must remember that next time... []

Please let it be known to all that, although I am pushy and absolutist, I did not mean to sound pushy and absolutist.  Readers are strongly encouraged to mentally replace the word "must" (in my previous post) with other less offensive phrases such as: "it is imperative that everyone submit to my will..."

[carltonplace]

I find your meatloaf to be puerile and pedantic.

[RecycleMichael]

If Ponder is pushy, puerile and pedantic it is because of her purist, passionate and phonetic abilities.

[PonderInc]

Phonetic?  Surely you meant "photogenic" []

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

The little Cathedral Square fountain does work. At least, just about every time I've driven by and glanced over, it was working.

They finally got the Tracy Park fountain working again after a long time. So that's good news.

I have no idea why we can't keep a fountain going in this town. Maybe we have hard water and it clogs up the pipes? Our freeze-thaw cycle, maybe?

Just drove by the Cathedral Square fountain and confirmed what I had thought.  I couldn't tell from the street whether there is water in it, but it definitely was not operating.

fyi, I drove by the Cathedral Square fountain about 7:00 tonight and it was working just fine. Who knows why it wasn't running last week...

[TheArtist]

^  With all the heat we have been having, could have just run out of water lol.[8D]  Couple pics I took.

[T-TownMike]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I have commented on something like this before.  I think we have a great opportunity to have an incredible downtown, central square or plaza.  Most of the cities I visit have a large central plaza facing a Cathedral.  It just so happens that Tulsa has a Cathedral that rivals many that you will find in comprable cities in the US.  Aaaand it also just so happens that we have a lot of empty space in front of it. No need to tear down or move anything.  The only concern would be building some parking for the church and businesses, restraunts etc. around the plaza.  The parking garages themselves could have businesses on the first floors or on the side facing the plaza.  

 The problem with many of the so called plazas and squares that we do have downtown are 2fold.  One they dont have any businesses or attractions to visit.  Especially like cafes or shops that have seating outside.  Second none of them have a view of any sort.  They are depressingly devoid of any beauty or character.  If you were to build a plaza around the area facing the cathedral in Tulsa you would instantly have a great view of of a beautiful church and the view to the north of downtown from that area is stunning, especially at night.  The whole area could be a tourist destination where visitors can tour the nearby churches and then shop and eat etc.

 To get it started I suggest the city make a deal with the church to use their parking lot to add a central concourse through it with a fountain in the center strip of greenspace on either side, you could even still have a row of parking on either side of this. You could add a parking garage just to the North for downtown and the church on sunday.  Which is I believe where the city is thinking of adding a parking garage anyway. So having it look nice with shops and restraunt space below would be a good start right there.  

Napkin scribble, use your imagination lol.

 And if your imagination is as good as mine[] you will perhaps see something like this. Then imagine our incredible skyscrapers just to the right of each of these and you will have an idea of what we are fortunate enough to be able to have if we but only decide to do it.




or this.



What a beautiful place we could have in our downtown to eat, relax enjoy people watching, shop and have as a tourist destination.  We have the groundwork for it.  It could be done.

Great post. I couldn't agree more. It's exactly the the type of plaza I was referring to. Great location, stunning beauty, now it needs some cafe type shops and voila-instant destination in downtown Tulsa.


BTW, I've been meaning to chime in, just been very busy. There are some well-thought out ideas on this thread.

[art_cat]

quote:Originally posted by T-TownMike

After visiting several of our great cities in our nation, I'm convinced that Tulsa needs a plaza area in downtown Tulsa. A DESTINATION of quality restaraunts and shopping, with a movie theatre. I envision an area that is pedestrian friendly that incorporates some fountains and art amongst the area. I also would like to have a nice park area adjacent to this for those that just want to be outside in downtown Tulsa. I believe we should encourage people to come downtown and spend time. The way to do that is to give them something to do. A plaza area incorporates indoors with oudoors and gives the best of both worlds. Here's some pictures of Kansas City's plaza area...


Thoughts?

It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by art_cat

quote:Originally posted by T-TownMike

After visiting several of our great cities in our nation, I'm convinced that Tulsa needs a plaza area in downtown Tulsa. A DESTINATION of quality restaraunts and shopping, with a movie theatre. I envision an area that is pedestrian friendly that incorporates some fountains and art amongst the area. I also would like to have a nice park area adjacent to this for those that just want to be outside in downtown Tulsa. I believe we should encourage people to come downtown and spend time. The way to do that is to give them something to do. A plaza area incorporates indoors with oudoors and gives the best of both worlds. Here's some pictures of Kansas City's plaza area...


Thoughts?

It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]

Question for ya art_cat.  Do you realize that the [}:)] symbol means you are being "mean" or facetious?  For example, "It's a GREAT idea! [}:)]"  Means you think its a stupid idea and that he is a complete moron to suggest it?  Just wanting to make sure there isn't some misunderstanding going on lol.