Justice For Sale..... "How Much do we Budget?"

[MH2010]

"Another thing to consider is the police get a guaranteed step increase every year over and above what they negotiate for a "raise" (in this case, the 4.5% vs 8%)....oddly, that's often left out of the argument.

Pretty sure the non-union City employees don't enjoy that benefit."

Step-Increases are not guaranteed.  Each year each officer has an evaluation of their performance.  If they meet certain standards then they are allowed to increase to the next step.  The step increase is done to encourage good performance.

"The City, for a few short years, had a tiny matching "program" but that went away with one of the many budget cuts several years ago.

Also, since the City does not turn a "profit", they would be hard pressed to offer employees any profit sharing or a bonus of any kind. The closes thing they come to that is the longevity pay that the police officers get.

Additionally, they are able to receive money for continuing their education where the non-union City employees do not; that was another result of past years' budget and pay cuts that went, in part, towards funding the police and fire raises."

-The non-union city employees received cuts in pay as a result of an economic downturn that affected Tulsa and the surrounding area.  These conditions caused the entire city budget to shrink and budget cuts effected everyone.  The public safety budget was effected but the unions were able to help find ways to reduce the budget without cuting salaries.

[rwarn17588]

So, if you're a good cop, you've nothing to worry about.

So, with "step increases," that 8 percent raise that's been mediated goes up to a 12.5 percent raise.

Not bad.

[MH2010]

Too bad we're 16% below market survey and we require a four year college degree where most cities in our survey do not.  A 12% raise for this year would almost make me average to other officers in other cities.  Just think, if we get this raise, we are that much closer to being average![]

[Wilbur]

Can one of you officers that post here report how many policemen or women are at each classification?

1 Chief
3 Deputy Chiefs
8 Majors (Division Commanders)
Approx 24 Captains
Approx 80 Sergeants
Approx 80 Corporals
Approx 600+ Officers

"Another thing to consider is the police get a guaranteed step increase every year over and above what they negotiate for a "raise" (in this case, the 4.5% vs 8%)....oddly, that's often left out of the argument.

Not entirely correct.  There are only 9 steps at the officer level, which means, after nine years, you are topped out in pay and are at the mercy of pay increases negotiated with the city.  The higher in rank you go, the lower number of 'step' increases there are.  And remember, we are comparing ourselves to other police departments, who do the same thing.

Pretty sure the non-union City employees don't enjoy that benefit."

Untrue.  While civilian employees don't have a step program similar to police, they do have step increases based on the city's 'matrix' system.  Very hard to explain.

Additionally, they are able to receive money for continuing their education where the non-union City employees do not; that was another result of past years' budget and pay cuts that went, in part, towards funding the police and fire raises."

I'm not aware of this.  Please cite your source.

I am also interested in the list of comparable cities that Tulsa is matched against to find an average salary.

Austin, San Antonio, Kansas City, Tucson, Denver, Omaha, Colorado Springs, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis and Dallas.

[rwarn17588]

Market survey compared to what? The metro area? The state? The country?

Just curious.

[MH2010]

The City of Tulsa and the FOP agree to a 10 city survey to see what other officers are making at compariable cities.  These are the cities that were agreed upon and used.

Austin, San Antonio, Kansas City, Tucson, Denver, Omaha, Colorado Springs, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis and Dallas.

[rwarn17588]

Of those cities you listed, Tulsa's average cost of living is lower than all of them but two -- OKC and Omaha -- and they are within 1-2% of Tulsa.

The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)

Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Of those cities you listed, Tulsa's average cost of living is lower than all of them but two -- OKC and Omaha -- and they are within 1-2% of Tulsa.

The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)

Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?

That has already been factored in and we are still 16% below survey.

[Wilbur]

The others listed are 4-12% higher in average cost of living. (Source: CNN Money)Did it occur to you, that factoring in cost of living, that Tulsa may *already* be at the average level of the region you cited?

The FOP has fought for a list of cities for years to use as an average.  Of course, the City wanted to use the 10 least paid cities and the FOP wanted to use to 10 most paid cities.  After I can't tell you how many years, the two sides agreed to the use of the 10 cities listed.  Will we ever find 10 cities exactly like Tulsa, no.  We need to start someplace.

And when you ask potential applicants why they didn't pick Tulsa, they cite wages as the number one reason they went someplace else.  You can say they went someplace else that cost more to live, but they still went someplace other then Tulsa.

At last year's arbitration, the City got blasted by the arbitrator for using cities with a total population of 2000 and trying to justify why that compares to a city the size of Tulsa at 380,000+.  Anybody want to guess where the City's priorities are?

Again, the FOP is only asking for AVERAGE.  Nothing higher.

[MH2010]

I really don't think average is too much to ask for.  Hopefully, if the vote passes we will be able to hire from a better pool of recruits.

[RecycleMichael]

I took a small sample from the cities you mentioned. It was hard to find the information on some of the cities listed.

I took the starting pay for an academy graduated starting police officer.

Tulsa         Starting $ 37,451.64
OKC           Starting $ 39,379.68
Omaha         Starting $ 36,347.00
Austin        Starting $ 44,570.00
San Antonio   Starting $ 38,448.00
Tucson        Starting $ 38.272.00
Kansas City   Starting $ 38,304.00

The average is $ 38,967.47

Tulsa officers are paid lower than everybody except Omaha.

If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.

If you took the 4.5 per cent that was offered to the officers, the new pay would be $39,136.96 per year or $169.49 above average.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

I took a small sample from the cities you mentioned. It was hard to find the information on some of the cities listed.

I took the starting pay for an academy graduated starting police officer.

Tulsa         Starting $ 37,451.64
OKC           Starting $ 39,379.68
Omaha         Starting $ 36,347.00
Austin        Starting $ 44,570.00
San Antonio   Starting $ 38,448.00
Tucson        Starting $ 38.272.00
Kansas City   Starting $ 38,304.00

The average is $ 38,967.47

Tulsa officers are paid lower than everybody except Omaha.

If you add 8% to Tulsa officer's pay, The new beginning salary is $40,447.08 which would be higher than everybody but Austin.

If you took the 4.5 per cent that was offered to the officers, the new pay would be $39,136.96 per year or $169.49 above average.

Did you check to see which police departments require a 4 year college degree?

The 8% raise would help us greatly in attracting a better applicant pool. We would be almost ahead of the curve for once!  Of course that is considering that OKC, Omaha, Austin, San Antonio, Tucson, and Kansas City do not get raises this year! Even if they did, maybe we wouldn't lose anymore officers to Broken Arrow, Moore or Mustang, OK!

But let's not forget that there are other officers besides the ones just out of the academy class. Every police department and hopefully the city administration wants to retain the officers it hires.  Experienced and Veteran officers are good to have around. They tend to know the area better and the criminals better than any first year officer. Were you able to check on them?  When you do you will find that those are the ones that are anywhere between 10-20% below market survey. They are the ones that make up most of the officers on the Tulsa Police Department.

To get a better over all picture, you need to check the steps of all officers and how many steps other departments have? You also have to check the steps for supervisors. Did you know that first year Broken Arrow Sgts make more that Tulsa Police first year Sgts?

Lastly, The city did not offer a 4.5% raise for all officers.  They offered a 2.3% raise for all officers and then adding an additional top step at the top of the pay chart.

[rwarn17588]

So, regardless of what happens, the pay is going to be above average in the market, according to Michael's data.

And Michael's raw numbers do *not* factor in cost of living of those cities, of which Tulsa is lower than most. That's why I keep bring it up. $40,000 in Austin goes less far than $40,000 in Tulsa.

I think it's wise to wait and see until the other city contracts are finished, see what (if any) money's left in the city budget, and then make a decision on cop raises.

I think Michael's right in what he was surmising some weeks ago -- that the mayor's keeping her options open. After all, the police union and city can strike a deal anytime right up before the election.

[RecycleMichael]

I tried to get the information on sergeants, but it was too difficult from my rudimentary search on the internet. Starting pay was more easily found.

I am not against the officer's on this matter.

I just got riled up when Rico started the thread attacking the way he did and then on another forum Paul Tay is trying to start a recall petition on the mayor.

I also know the moral problems that occurred when other city employees took pay cuts under LaFortune when the police got raises. I also remember how the police union treated Mayor Savage when she argued with them over pay.

The police union campaigned against Savage, then LaFortune, and now some are making very mean statements against Taylor. It is hard to believe they will ever not attack a sitting mayor.

Everybody wants the police to be the best we can attract and pay has to be important. I am also amazed that most people want the police to get raises without knowing what they are currently paid.

I applaud you police posters for sharing the information. The better informed we all are the better we can all help this city.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

So, regardless of what happens, the pay is going to be above average in the market, according to Michael's data.

And Michael's raw numbers do *not* factor in cost of living of those cities, of which Tulsa is lower than most. That's why I keep bring it up. $40,000 in Austin goes less far than $40,000 in Tulsa.

I think it's wise to wait and see until the other city contracts are finished, see what (if any) money's left in the city budget, and then make a decision on cop raises.

I think Michael's right in what he was surmising some weeks ago -- that the mayor's keeping her options open. After all, the police union and city can strike a deal anytime right up before the election.

No. That is not correct.

Michael's numbers show the base starting salary for a first year officer out of the academy in only six of the 10 city survey. For those six cities, first year officers will be slightly above average. That will affect about 50 officers. His numbers do not show any other pay step for other officers, supervisors ect. His numbers are a small snap shot of the overall picture.


Further, I think the people of Tulsa want the mayor to prioritize public safety. Hopefully, people will vote that way on Dec. 12.

"We must prioritize funding for police and firefighters" - Kathy Taylor